if you are a thorki fandom content creator and are comfortable filling out an spreadsheet’s worth of (entirely optional) info, click here.
why the spreadsheet? well, I saw a mutual complain about losing their fanbase, and tbh I have similar worries – it took me a while to get to the number of followers I have! and I don’t want to lose that!
so if you create content for the thorki fandom*, then you’re welcome to fill this form with as many details as you’re comfortable sharing. remember, only share stuff you’re comfortable having known to people. if you want to specify that something is available upon request, put AOR in that field
the form has space for every social media that I could think of (+ a field for any I might have missed) and it basically exists so the fandom doesn’t lose track of content creators, and so that content creators get a head start on new platforms without having to rebuild their fanbase from mutuals and scratch.
entirely optional, but public access, so please be careful!
note: you can add your friends/mutuals if they’re okay with it. please make sure that they are.
*what counts as content? original posts. headcanons, meta, round robins, fics, art, rec lists, edits, playlists. if you’re a moderator (or have ever been a moderator) please add that too—moderating is valuable!
lastly, please consider reblogging this post for maximum visibility: the link means it’s not going to show up in search results
The second most irritating thing a person can say in regards to Loki is that that he faked his sacrifice in TDW. Bonus points if they’re a fan of Ragnarok, which goes out of its way to point out how Loki’s illusions are not solid. THEY ARE NOT SOLID. They become distorted when touched. So how the fuck did Loki fake being stabbed? And when he nearly got sucked into a black hole grenade saving Jane, was that part of his master plan to take the throne of Asgard, too? What about offering said throne to Thor? Ugh!
The most irritating thing a person can say in regards to Loki is that he faked his death/suicide in Thor. I have no words for these people. They render me speechless.
Also coming in at runner’s up position: Stating “I love Loki, I really do, buuuuuut….” before going into how they think that Loki deserved every bad thing that happened to him, and also, mentioning many other things about Loki’s character which are clearly not based in MCU canon.
In short, justifying their asinine views w.r.t. Loki under the garb of being a Loki fan.
“I love Loki, I really do, but he’s a complete piece of garbage with no redeeming personal qualities whatsoever who deserves no sympathy for anything.”
Yeah, most people don’t call that “loving” a character.
(P.S. if you think Loki is a completely unsympathetic piece of garbage and Thor is an angel who’s never done anything wrong, please get off my ship. Go ship Thor/Bruce or something equally obnoxious.)
Thor has done things to hurt Loki. He’s put Loki in his place. He’s failed to condemn Odin. He’s refused to mourn over their mother. He didn’t visit Loki when he was imprisoned. He didn’t plead for Loki after the events of Avengers. The list goes on.
In every instance, he had a reason for how he behaved. He put Loki in his place because Thor was insecure, too. He was the child with all the expectations. He also learned that behavior from Odin, who we see put Loki and Thor in their places over the course of the movies. He didn’t mourn Frigga with Loki, or visit Loki, or plead on Loki’s behalf because he was justifiably upset about what Loki had done on Midgard. Because whatever Loki had become wasn’t really his brother, so he avoided the pain this… impostor would inflict.
Understandable. Still wrong. Still hurtful. Still convinces Loki that Thor doesn’t care. That no one cares after Frigga passes.
Loki loves Thor. A lot.
Loki has done things to hurt Thor. Fuck, he killed Thor once! Enough said (and yet you could say so much more).
In every instance, he had a reason for how he behaved. Even when he killed Thor, it was part of a serious breakdown (and perhaps not even well thought out). And there’s motivations for everything else Loki does, too (that’s why he’s an excellent villain–they’ve made a character you feel sympathy for, even while you must condemn his actions).
Understandable. Still wrong. Still hurtful. Still convinces Thor that Loki’s just bad. That he’s lost his brother (sometimes literally in the deceased sort of way).
My point is that it’s both true that they love each other, and true that they’ve both got a lot to apologize for and work through. And if they’re going to do that, it’s going to have to be a process that begins with them both acknowledging that neither is without motivations or lack love for the other.
Honestly, I think a big part of their problem is thinking the other cares less, or not at all. Loki’s whole “I don’t have the Tesseract” bit where he’s certain Thor’s only there for that (when obviously he’s their for Loki). Thor’s statement to Frigga that Loki’s not the boy she knew, and therefore not the brother Thor knew, either. His confusion over Loki attacking him at the end of Thor and denying their brotherhood. Jeez, they just keep feeding this assumption in one another!!!
I wish there were more people in the fandom who were willing to point out BOTH characters’ flaws and misdeeds at the same time, in the same posts. Though come to think of it… even when people do add nuance to their analyses, the stans for one character or the other will read any criticism or acknowledgment of flaws as a heinous attack and come after the person trying to admit nuance, assuming that they must be a stan for Character X and therefore hate Character Y.
I know that when talking amongst ourselves, people who are Loki fans in the first instance (I don’t consider myself a “stan” for anyone) have absolutely no problem admitting Loki’s faults. @imaginetrilobites tells me the same is true of primarily-Thor fans when they talk among themselves (I don’t know, they mostly don’t talk to me). But somehow when conversation happens between the two communities, each feels the need to present their own favorite as immaculate and the other character as a horrible person, solely responsible for all of the problems in their relationship – and this happens even when some people on both sides are Thor/Loki shippers. Like, WTF? Why would you ship your favorite character with someone you think is a horrible person?
There are probably some outlying members of both fandoms who really, truly believe their fave is completely blameless in everything: Loki stans who insist that Thor’s bullying and Odin’s bad parenting excuse everything he does in Thor 1,andthat Thanos literally brainwashed him instead of just manipulating and/or torturing him; Thor stans who think that Thor was already perfect even in the first Thor movie and Odin banished him not because he had done anything wrong or needed to learn humility, but only because Thor had disobeyed him personally. But I’ve had a few discussions across party lines that lead me to believe that we don’t disagree as much as the vitriolic “debates” make it look like.
Admitting that your favorite did something wrong is not admitting defeat. If we’re good consumers of media, we love characters because they’re complicated and imperfect; because their virtues and their flaws are interestingly entangled; because they do bad things for what might, from a certain perspective, look like good reasons. Do your fellow fans and yourselves the courtesy of acknowledging the ways in which that’s true.
Wow Waititi is being a gross asshole today for no good reason. WTF man, it’s not your job to decide which Marvel movies should / will be done.
If it’s supposed to be humorous, I fail to see the humor.
He was always an asshole. The success of his film only showed off his Loki/Tom hating assholery.
Oh, thank goodness there are people on here who think this is rude! The first post I saw with pictures of these tweets was praising TW’s response. I get it if you don’t want a Loki movie–I don’t really want one either (I’d like the MCU to stop messing with Loki and Thor because they don’t care about them at all)–but the people in the comments of that post were mocking the twitter user, and found TW’s response hilarious and proper. Um, no. He could and should have just ignored this person. Instead, he utterly crushed them.
Sorry if you didn’t want those tags made more visible, @foundlingmother, but I do have something to say about this. I have noticed that certain Thorki shippers like to diminish Loki’s virtues and complexity and I kind of thought it might be an oppositional reaction to the “Loki’s Army”/ “Loki’s Resistance” types who absolve Loki of all guilt for his misdeeds and usually blame Odin and Thor (and Thanos, later) for all of Loki’s problems. These people sanctify Loki and demonize Thor as a bully/abuser, so the contrary reaction of the Thor stans is to sanctify Thor and demonize Loki.
This looks very odd if they ship Thor and Loki: why would you want a character you love and think is perfect to be with a character you despise and think has no redeeming qualities (other than physical attractiveness, maybe)? That’s part of why I suspect that the demonization of Loki is just a reaction to the contrary view, which (I gather) gained prominence in 2012-13; after Thor 1, which came out in 2011 (or maybe before they encountered Loki’s Resistance on Tumblr, if they entered the fandom later), such Thorki shippers may have recognized the interest and complexity of both characters, but started denying it later. The Thor-hating Loki stans, meanwhile, are at least consistent in that they never ship Loki with Thor; instead, they usually ship Loki with themselves or a self-insert OFC (sometimes named Sigyn for the sake of appearances).
Or maybe these Thorki shippers always despised Loki and they just think that Hiddleston and Hemsworth are hot together. Or maybe it’s just an acknowledgment that Thor (at least before Ragnarok) loves and values Loki and wants to be with him, and their idea of a happy resolution – like TW and CH’s, apparently – is for Loki to give up all independent agency and conform himself to Thor’s desires.
@philosopherking1887 Nah, I don’t mind. I just wasn’t going to add it since it wasn’t relevant.
I agree it’s very possible that it’s a reaction to those Loki fans, and I find it just as annoying. Oddly enough, however, I’ve found few people who really meet that description of a Loki stan. I mean, I’ve found people who meet a few of those criteria, who proclaim themselves to be part of the “Loki army” and/or ship Loki with themselves or Sigyn (and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that–ship whatever makes you happy), but they tend to be pretty reasonable, and have a nuanced perspective on Loki and Thor’s relationship and Loki’s crimes (at least, judging by how they interact with my meta on the subjects, and my Thor meta in particular). Maybe it’s just because of the part of the fandom I’m in being a Thorki shipper, but I find a lot more Loki-hating (or at least demeaning) Thor stans. (Of course, I’ve found both–those Loki fans do 100% exist and they are really weird. Loki’s done bad shit, guys.)
That may just be a product of my own bias, however. Perhaps I’m a mega Loki stan who only thinks they love Thor and Loki equally. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Some “Loki’s Army” members and/or Loki x self or Loki x OFC shippers have reasonable, well-balanced views; many do not. (I don’t condemn such ships, either, but I’m very definitely not into it.) I don’t always follow all the additions to your meta threads, so I’m not sure who you’re encountering, but I have noticed that many of the people who reblog and add their thoughts to my Ragnarok-critical posts are Loki stans of the type I dislike (i.e., they hate Thor and regard Loki as a blameless victim). (No, I’m not going to block them; I just sometimes feel the need to reblog again and clarify my own position.)
I think I encounter obnoxious stans of both types in about equal numbers. These days, I think the Thor stans annoy me more because (1) they have patently incorrect views about the quality of Thor: Ragnarok; (2) I used to respect some of them as writers and even have semi-friendly relationships with them, and I’m currently feeling seriously disillusioned; and (3) I feel protective ofLoki and I don’t want people shipping him with Thor if they have no respect for Loki and think the Thor of Thor: Ragnarok (or Thor*, as I’ve called him before) is a good version of Thor. I would never ship Loki with Thor*; I have to do some massive mental revisions of what went on in Ragnarok to justify continuing to ship Thor/Loki. I agree that their view isn’t really any less irritating if it was arrived at through reaction to the excesses of Loki’s Resistance; it’s a sign of epistemic and character weakness to be so reactive that you abandon your original balanced view for an unjustified extreme just to show your opposition to some other extremists.
The main reason I get annoyed with the Loki stans is because they co-opt my posts and add to the erroneous impression some people in the Thorki fandom seem to have that I share the views of Loki’s Resistance. Not that I should care what certain people think of me… but even if they hate me, I want them to hate me for the right reasons. Even Nietzsche was anxious not to be mistaken for someone he wasn’t, even though he fully acknowledged that most people would be horrified and offended by what he had to say.
NB: I don’t consider myself a “stan” for anyone. I am an avid Loki fan, but the term “stan” seems to me to have the connotation of acknowledging no faults.
Wow Waititi is being a gross asshole today for no good reason. WTF man, it’s not your job to decide which Marvel movies should / will be done.
If it’s supposed to be humorous, I fail to see the humor.
He was always an asshole. The success of his film only showed off his Loki/Tom hating assholery.
Oh, thank goodness there are people on here who think this is rude! The first post I saw with pictures of these tweets was praising TW’s response. I get it if you don’t want a Loki movie–I don’t really want one either (I’d like the MCU to stop messing with Loki and Thor because they don’t care about them at all)–but the people in the comments of that post were mocking the twitter user, and found TW’s response hilarious and proper. Um, no. He could and should have just ignored this person. Instead, he utterly crushed them.
Sorry if you didn’t want those tags made more visible, @foundlingmother, but I do have something to say about this. I have noticed that certain Thorki shippers like to diminish Loki’s virtues and complexity and I kind of thought it might be an oppositional reaction to the “Loki’s Army”/ “Loki’s Resistance” types who absolve Loki of all guilt for his misdeeds and usually blame Odin and Thor (and Thanos, later) for all of Loki’s problems. These people sanctify Loki and demonize Thor as a bully/abuser, so the contrary reaction of the Thor stans is to sanctify Thor and demonize Loki.
This looks very odd if they ship Thor and Loki: why would you want a character you love and think is perfect to be with a character you despise and think has no redeeming qualities (other than physical attractiveness, maybe)? That’s part of why I suspect that the demonization of Loki is just a reaction to the contrary view, which (I gather) gained prominence in 2012-13; after Thor 1, which came out in 2011 (or maybe before they encountered Loki’s Resistance on Tumblr, if they entered the fandom later), such Thorki shippers may have recognized the interest and complexity of both characters, but started denying it later. The Thor-hating Loki stans, meanwhile, are at least consistent in that they never ship Loki with Thor; instead, they usually ship Loki with themselves or a self-insert OFC (sometimes named Sigyn for the sake of appearances).
Or maybe these Thorki shippers always despised Loki and they just think that Hiddleston and Hemsworth are hot together. Or maybe it’s just an acknowledgment that Thor (at least before Ragnarok) loves and values Loki and wants to be with him, and their idea of a happy resolution – like TW and CH’s, apparently – is for Loki to give up all independent agency and conform himself to Thor’s desires.
If you’re a Thor/Loki shipper who dislikes what “Thor: Ragnarok” did to their characters,
could you please either (1) like this post if you’re not comfortable with your followers knowing or (2) reblog if you’re fine with letting them know? Reblogs are helpful for more exposure, too.
I ask because I’m feeling very alienated from the fandom right now. It seems that the Thorki fandom is dominated by people who like the way Ragnarok retconned Thor’s and Loki’s characters. Meanwhile, it seems that most of the people who object to the way it hollowed out Loki’s character are Loki stans who never liked Thor, and do not regard the Thor of Thor: Ragnarok as a radical departure from his character in previous films. So I’d like to get an idea of how many of my fellow shippers feel the way I do.
@philosopherking1887 I’m not really a Thorki shipper, though I enjoy the fanart and sometimes read certain fics. I’m in it for the sibling dynamic, most of all.
However, I also don’t fall under the category of the Thor hating Loki stan.
I’ve personally always seen Thor as someone who is kind of oblivious to Loki’s pain and suffering, rather than deliberately mean. He tries to reach out to Loki but due to the circumstances they’re in, it falls short somehow. His worldview seems too black and white, too simplistic, when put into perspective with Loki’s situation. And that’s the main cause of friction between them.
Perhaps the only time I felt really frustrated with Thor was when he visited Loki in his cell in TDW. I can understand that he doesn’t want to share his grief with his estranged brother, but he still could’ve answered Loki’s question regarding Frigga’s death. He essentially just told Loki that he was visiting merely because he wanted to use Loki’s skills. Of course, the whole Svartalfheim mission changes Thor’s perspective on Loki. (Which Ragnarok completely destroys, twisting the knife by making the whole thing into a big joke).
I wanted the brothers to carry on the positive turn in their relationship post Svartalfheim. Alas, that wasn’t to be. 🙁
It is no coincidence that my main fic is written in post TDW timeline, and I’ve tried, in my own way, to have the brothers address their issues and restore their sibling relationship.
TL: DR: I don’t hate Thor, but yes, I do hate what Ragnarok warped him into. I did like some of the banter between him and Loki, but a majority of it just rubbed me the wrong way. Same with how he treated Bruce.
OK, thanks. I am trying to get an accurate count of people who *currently* ship Thor/Loki, at least as they were in the movies before “Ragnarok,” possibly (as I do) assuming the basic events of “Ragnarok” as canon but with a very different construal of some of their actions than was intended by the film. If you are not a Thorki shipper, please do not like the post, because I don’t want to get an inflated impression of how many allies I have within the ship.
I love Thor and Loki both. They make each other whole with their duality. In my mind anyways. And all dynamics between them, be it familial or friends, lovers, enemies, ect. But I view Thor more through a comics eye, mish mashed with mcu Thor, and myth Thor. not how he was portrayed in Ragnarok at all. I’ll just ignore that.. I didnt know there were Loki stans that hated Thor though. I cant understand that one.. I mean..they made each other who they are growing up, so how can you hate one or the other.. I dont see Thor as being that dumb, or that mean spirited. He’s not dumb. I’ve been away from the MCU for a bit because Ragnarok just flattened it for me..for now anyways. Not hyped for IW either because of it..
They’re changing too many things with the characters like Steve imo.. seems like a repeat of Thor’s oocness. Seems like he’ll just be more like his actor Chris Evans than Steve Rogers/Cap.. But that’s another issue entirely..
There’s a contingent of people known as “Loki’s Resistance” who typically regard (MCU) Loki as a blameless victim throughout the films and Thor as little more than a bully and/or abuser. This is emphatically not my view of pre-Ragnarok Thor and Loki (and it annoys me when they co-opt my Ragnarok-critical posts…).
If you’re a Thor/Loki shipper who dislikes what “Thor: Ragnarok” did to their characters,
could you please either (1) like this post if you’re not comfortable with your followers knowing or (2) reblog if you’re fine with letting them know? Reblogs are helpful for more exposure, too.
I ask because I’m feeling very alienated from the fandom right now. It seems that the Thorki fandom is dominated by people who like the way Ragnarok retconned Thor’s and Loki’s characters. Meanwhile, it seems that most of the people who object to the way it hollowed out Loki’s character are Loki stans who never liked Thor, and do not regard the Thor of Thor: Ragnarok as a radical departure from his character in previous films. So I’d like to get an idea of how many of my fellow shippers feel the way I do.
@philosopherking1887 I’m not really a Thorki shipper, though I enjoy the fanart and sometimes read certain fics. I’m in it for the sibling dynamic, most of all.
However, I also don’t fall under the category of the Thor hating Loki stan.
I’ve personally always seen Thor as someone who is kind of oblivious to Loki’s pain and suffering, rather than deliberately mean. He tries to reach out to Loki but due to the circumstances they’re in, it falls short somehow. His worldview seems too black and white, too simplistic, when put into perspective with Loki’s situation. And that’s the main cause of friction between them.
Perhaps the only time I felt really frustrated with Thor was when he visited Loki in his cell in TDW. I can understand that he doesn’t want to share his grief with his estranged brother, but he still could’ve answered Loki’s question regarding Frigga’s death. He essentially just told Loki that he was visiting merely because he wanted to use Loki’s skills. Of course, the whole Svartalfheim mission changes Thor’s perspective on Loki. (Which Ragnarok completely destroys, twisting the knife by making the whole thing into a big joke).
I wanted the brothers to carry on the positive turn in their relationship post Svartalfheim. Alas, that wasn’t to be. 🙁
It is no coincidence that my main fic is written in post TDW timeline, and I’ve tried, in my own way, to have the brothers address their issues and restore their sibling relationship.
TL: DR: I don’t hate Thor, but yes, I do hate what Ragnarok warped him into. I did like some of the banter between him and Loki, but a majority of it just rubbed me the wrong way. Same with how he treated Bruce.
OK, thanks. I am trying to get an accurate count of people who *currently* ship Thor/Loki, at least as they were in the movies before “Ragnarok,” possibly (as I do) assuming the basic events of “Ragnarok” as canon but with a very different construal of some of their actions than was intended by the film. If you are not a Thorki shipper, please do not like the post, because I don’t want to get an inflated impression of how many allies I have within the ship.
If you’re a Thor/Loki shipper who dislikes what “Thor: Ragnarok” did to their characters,
could you please either (1) like this post if you’re not comfortable with your followers knowing or (2) reblog if you’re fine with letting them know? Reblogs are helpful for more exposure, too.
I ask because I’m feeling very alienated from the fandom right now. It seems that the Thorki fandom is dominated by people who like the way Ragnarok retconned Thor’s and Loki’s characters. Meanwhile, it seems that most of the people who object to the way it hollowed out Loki’s character are Loki stans who never liked Thor, and do not regard the Thor of Thor: Ragnarok as a radical departure from his character in previous films. So I’d like to get an idea of how many of my fellow shippers feel the way I do.
I have made it no secret that I am greatly dissatisfied with many aspects of Thor: Ragnarok, most especially the characterizations of Thor and Loki and the discontinuity with their characterization in earlier movies. Among more extreme Loki fans, including those who (reportedly) used to call themselves “Loki’s Resistance” and are widely known as “Loki-apologists” (I prefer “unconditional Loki-justifiers,” for reasons of precision), people have no trouble saying that they disliked the movie because of the way it thinned out Loki’s character. Loki fans who are in networks with the Loki-justifiers but do not hate Thor (as so many of the justifiers do) also have no trouble pointing out that Ragnarok messed up Thor’s character, virtually disregarding the process of maturation he had gone through in previous MCU movies.
However, it seems that more moderate Loki fans (who do acknowledge his flaws and misdeeds), including but not limited to Thor/Loki shippers, have been feeling pressured into silence about their dissatisfaction with the movie. Four such people have communicated with me about it under their own names, two relatively openly in replies to my posts, two in private messages; a few more have expressed similar sentiments in anonymous asks. I’m kind of concerned that smart, thoughtful people feel like they can’t express their views for fear of being shunned or bombarded with hate. (About a movie, FFS; this isn’t a matter of life and death!)
Maybe this is just a function of the overall climate of Tumblr, which a friend of mine has characterized as just a bunch of young people all agreeing with each other (in my more bitter moments, I’ve used the terms “groupthink” and “circle-jerk”). It seems that around here group identities revolve around people all sharing the same views. Arguments (or firefights, really) can only be had on a hostile footing across group lines; there’s not much of a chance for productive or friendly disagreement within a community. As a philosopher (and a Jew), this strikes me as extremely bizarre and more than a little creepy. I disagree with other philosophers about a lot of things, and we argue, and raise objections to each other’s papers, but we’re still friends, still enjoy many of the same things, still share (largely) the same basic values. There are subcommunities, to be sure, of those who agree about certain issues, but we are still a community, engaged in a common enterprise, in spite of (indeed, driven by!) our disagreements.
What can we do to make the fandom such that people feel comfortable expressing their actual views even if they disagree with the majority of the community, or just (as it may be) with the loudest voices? If the fandom is already open to such disagreement, how can we reassure people that they won’t be ostracized for holding minority/unpopular views?
I hope that some people with more standing in the fandom than I have will take an active part in opening it up to productive disagreement. All these “I thought it was just me” and “everyone’s been telling me I’m crazy” and “I was so relieved to see your post” and “I feel like I should just stfu if my interpretation is different from the main one” messages are making me kind of alarmed and kind of sad.
While my parents were in town for my defense and we were at a memorial service for a semi-distant relative who died unexpectedly, I missed the second anniversary of my first Thor/Loki fic, Desert Flowers, which was posted on January 15, 2016. Congratulations, me; I’ve been in this particular hellhole for two years now.
Loki is the Philosopher King 