Wow Waititi is being a gross asshole today for no good reason. WTF man, it’s not your job to decide which Marvel movies should / will be done.
If it’s supposed to be humorous, I fail to see the humor.
He was always an asshole. The success of his film only showed off his Loki/Tom hating assholery.
Oh, thank goodness there are people on here who think this is rude! The first post I saw with pictures of these tweets was praising TW’s response. I get it if you don’t want a Loki movie–I don’t really want one either (I’d like the MCU to stop messing with Loki and Thor because they don’t care about them at all)–but the people in the comments of that post were mocking the twitter user, and found TW’s response hilarious and proper. Um, no. He could and should have just ignored this person. Instead, he utterly crushed them.
Sorry if you didn’t want those tags made more visible, @foundlingmother, but I do have something to say about this. I have noticed that certain Thorki shippers like to diminish Loki’s virtues and complexity and I kind of thought it might be an oppositional reaction to the “Loki’s Army”/ “Loki’s Resistance” types who absolve Loki of all guilt for his misdeeds and usually blame Odin and Thor (and Thanos, later) for all of Loki’s problems. These people sanctify Loki and demonize Thor as a bully/abuser, so the contrary reaction of the Thor stans is to sanctify Thor and demonize Loki.
This looks very odd if they ship Thor and Loki: why would you want a character you love and think is perfect to be with a character you despise and think has no redeeming qualities (other than physical attractiveness, maybe)? That’s part of why I suspect that the demonization of Loki is just a reaction to the contrary view, which (I gather) gained prominence in 2012-13; after Thor 1, which came out in 2011 (or maybe before they encountered Loki’s Resistance on Tumblr, if they entered the fandom later), such Thorki shippers may have recognized the interest and complexity of both characters, but started denying it later. The Thor-hating Loki stans, meanwhile, are at least consistent in that they never ship Loki with Thor; instead, they usually ship Loki with themselves or a self-insert OFC (sometimes named Sigyn for the sake of appearances).
Or maybe these Thorki shippers always despised Loki and they just think that Hiddleston and Hemsworth are hot together. Or maybe it’s just an acknowledgment that Thor (at least before Ragnarok) loves and values Loki and wants to be with him, and their idea of a happy resolution – like TW and CH’s, apparently – is for Loki to give up all independent agency and conform himself to Thor’s desires.
@philosopherking1887 Nah, I don’t mind. I just wasn’t going to add it since it wasn’t relevant.
I agree it’s very possible that it’s a reaction to those Loki fans, and I find it just as annoying. Oddly enough, however, I’ve found few people who really meet that description of a Loki stan. I mean, I’ve found people who meet a few of those criteria, who proclaim themselves to be part of the “Loki army” and/or ship Loki with themselves or Sigyn (and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that–ship whatever makes you happy), but they tend to be pretty reasonable, and have a nuanced perspective on Loki and Thor’s relationship and Loki’s crimes (at least, judging by how they interact with my meta on the subjects, and my Thor meta in particular). Maybe it’s just because of the part of the fandom I’m in being a Thorki shipper, but I find a lot more Loki-hating (or at least demeaning) Thor stans. (Of course, I’ve found both–those Loki fans do 100% exist and they are really weird. Loki’s done bad shit, guys.)
That may just be a product of my own bias, however. Perhaps I’m a mega Loki stan who only thinks they love Thor and Loki equally. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Some “Loki’s Army” members and/or Loki x self or Loki x OFC shippers have reasonable, well-balanced views; many do not. (I don’t condemn such ships, either, but I’m very definitely not into it.) I don’t always follow all the additions to your meta threads, so I’m not sure who you’re encountering, but I have noticed that many of the people who reblog and add their thoughts to my Ragnarok-critical posts are Loki stans of the type I dislike (i.e., they hate Thor and regard Loki as a blameless victim). (No, I’m not going to block them; I just sometimes feel the need to reblog again and clarify my own position.)
I think I encounter obnoxious stans of both types in about equal numbers. These days, I think the Thor stans annoy me more because (1) they have patently incorrect views about the quality of Thor: Ragnarok; (2) I used to respect some of them as writers and even have semi-friendly relationships with them, and I’m currently feeling seriously disillusioned; and (3) I feel protective ofLoki and I don’t want people shipping him with Thor if they have no respect for Loki and think the Thor of Thor: Ragnarok (or Thor*, as I’ve called him before) is a good version of Thor. I would never ship Loki with Thor*; I have to do some massive mental revisions of what went on in Ragnarok to justify continuing to ship Thor/Loki. I agree that their view isn’t really any less irritating if it was arrived at through reaction to the excesses of Loki’s Resistance; it’s a sign of epistemic and character weakness to be so reactive that you abandon your original balanced view for an unjustified extreme just to show your opposition to some other extremists.
The main reason I get annoyed with the Loki stans is because they co-opt my posts and add to the erroneous impression some people in the Thorki fandom seem to have that I share the views of Loki’s Resistance. Not that I should care what certain people think of me… but even if they hate me, I want them to hate me for the right reasons. Even Nietzsche was anxious not to be mistaken for someone he wasn’t, even though he fully acknowledged that most people would be horrified and offended by what he had to say.
NB: I don’t consider myself a “stan” for anyone. I am an avid Loki fan, but the term “stan” seems to me to have the connotation of acknowledging no faults.
Wow Waititi is being a gross asshole today for no good reason. WTF man, it’s not your job to decide which Marvel movies should / will be done.
If it’s supposed to be humorous, I fail to see the humor.
He was always an asshole. The success of his film only showed off his Loki/Tom hating assholery.
Oh, thank goodness there are people on here who think this is rude! The first post I saw with pictures of these tweets was praising TW’s response. I get it if you don’t want a Loki movie–I don’t really want one either (I’d like the MCU to stop messing with Loki and Thor because they don’t care about them at all)–but the people in the comments of that post were mocking the twitter user, and found TW’s response hilarious and proper. Um, no. He could and should have just ignored this person. Instead, he utterly crushed them.
I don’t think Marvel could make a Loki movie work, and certainly not with TW as director. But that’s not what was at play here. A very enthusiastic and probably young fan was dunked into dirt for all to see because she dared to @ a self-proclaimed “god”. So that said “god” could feed it’s own already morbidly fat ego.
Exactly. He doesn’t like Loki (can I say he hates him? Because it’s what I feel since the first time ) and he doesn’t even make any efforts to hide it, maybe only for politeness. Okay…
But this doesn’t give him the right to be such rude with a girl. A fan. It’s not his decision. He’s not entitled to give this kind of comment/answer. Where’s the respect toward people who go to see your movie? Who have paid money for seeing a bad parody and a mock of three previous movies? Who have paid money for seeing important characters broken in pieces or mocked or dismissed?
I really don’t understand…
He’s clearly contemptuous of Loki/Tom’s female fans and the movie made no secret of that contempt – as @fuckyeahrichardiii has observed, it’s like he was deliberately trying to drive them away.
Wow Waititi is being a gross asshole today for no good reason. WTF man, it’s not your job to decide which Marvel movies should / will be done.
If it’s supposed to be humorous, I fail to see the humor.
He was always an asshole. The success of his film only showed off his Loki/Tom hating assholery.
Oh, thank goodness there are people on here who think this is rude! The first post I saw with pictures of these tweets was praising TW’s response. I get it if you don’t want a Loki movie–I don’t really want one either (I’d like the MCU to stop messing with Loki and Thor because they don’t care about them at all)–but the people in the comments of that post were mocking the twitter user, and found TW’s response hilarious and proper. Um, no. He could and should have just ignored this person. Instead, he utterly crushed them.
Sorry if you didn’t want those tags made more visible, @foundlingmother, but I do have something to say about this. I have noticed that certain Thorki shippers like to diminish Loki’s virtues and complexity and I kind of thought it might be an oppositional reaction to the “Loki’s Army”/ “Loki’s Resistance” types who absolve Loki of all guilt for his misdeeds and usually blame Odin and Thor (and Thanos, later) for all of Loki’s problems. These people sanctify Loki and demonize Thor as a bully/abuser, so the contrary reaction of the Thor stans is to sanctify Thor and demonize Loki.
This looks very odd if they ship Thor and Loki: why would you want a character you love and think is perfect to be with a character you despise and think has no redeeming qualities (other than physical attractiveness, maybe)? That’s part of why I suspect that the demonization of Loki is just a reaction to the contrary view, which (I gather) gained prominence in 2012-13; after Thor 1, which came out in 2011 (or maybe before they encountered Loki’s Resistance on Tumblr, if they entered the fandom later), such Thorki shippers may have recognized the interest and complexity of both characters, but started denying it later. The Thor-hating Loki stans, meanwhile, are at least consistent in that they never ship Loki with Thor; instead, they usually ship Loki with themselves or a self-insert OFC (sometimes named Sigyn for the sake of appearances).
Or maybe these Thorki shippers always despised Loki and they just think that Hiddleston and Hemsworth are hot together. Or maybe it’s just an acknowledgment that Thor (at least before Ragnarok) loves and values Loki and wants to be with him, and their idea of a happy resolution – like TW and CH’s, apparently – is for Loki to give up all independent agency and conform himself to Thor’s desires.
If you’re a Thor/Loki shipper who dislikes what “Thor: Ragnarok” did to their characters,
could you please either (1) like this post if you’re not comfortable with your followers knowing or (2) reblog if you’re fine with letting them know? Reblogs are helpful for more exposure, too.
I ask because I’m feeling very alienated from the fandom right now. It seems that the Thorki fandom is dominated by people who like the way Ragnarok retconned Thor’s and Loki’s characters. Meanwhile, it seems that most of the people who object to the way it hollowed out Loki’s character are Loki stans who never liked Thor, and do not regard the Thor of Thor: Ragnarok as a radical departure from his character in previous films. So I’d like to get an idea of how many of my fellow shippers feel the way I do.
@philosopherking1887 I’m not really a Thorki shipper, though I enjoy the fanart and sometimes read certain fics. I’m in it for the sibling dynamic, most of all.
However, I also don’t fall under the category of the Thor hating Loki stan.
I’ve personally always seen Thor as someone who is kind of oblivious to Loki’s pain and suffering, rather than deliberately mean. He tries to reach out to Loki but due to the circumstances they’re in, it falls short somehow. His worldview seems too black and white, too simplistic, when put into perspective with Loki’s situation. And that’s the main cause of friction between them.
Perhaps the only time I felt really frustrated with Thor was when he visited Loki in his cell in TDW. I can understand that he doesn’t want to share his grief with his estranged brother, but he still could’ve answered Loki’s question regarding Frigga’s death. He essentially just told Loki that he was visiting merely because he wanted to use Loki’s skills. Of course, the whole Svartalfheim mission changes Thor’s perspective on Loki. (Which Ragnarok completely destroys, twisting the knife by making the whole thing into a big joke).
I wanted the brothers to carry on the positive turn in their relationship post Svartalfheim. Alas, that wasn’t to be. 🙁
It is no coincidence that my main fic is written in post TDW timeline, and I’ve tried, in my own way, to have the brothers address their issues and restore their sibling relationship.
TL: DR: I don’t hate Thor, but yes, I do hate what Ragnarok warped him into. I did like some of the banter between him and Loki, but a majority of it just rubbed me the wrong way. Same with how he treated Bruce.
OK, thanks. I am trying to get an accurate count of people who *currently* ship Thor/Loki, at least as they were in the movies before “Ragnarok,” possibly (as I do) assuming the basic events of “Ragnarok” as canon but with a very different construal of some of their actions than was intended by the film. If you are not a Thorki shipper, please do not like the post, because I don’t want to get an inflated impression of how many allies I have within the ship.
I love Thor and Loki both. They make each other whole with their duality. In my mind anyways. And all dynamics between them, be it familial or friends, lovers, enemies, ect. But I view Thor more through a comics eye, mish mashed with mcu Thor, and myth Thor. not how he was portrayed in Ragnarok at all. I’ll just ignore that.. I didnt know there were Loki stans that hated Thor though. I cant understand that one.. I mean..they made each other who they are growing up, so how can you hate one or the other.. I dont see Thor as being that dumb, or that mean spirited. He’s not dumb. I’ve been away from the MCU for a bit because Ragnarok just flattened it for me..for now anyways. Not hyped for IW either because of it..
They’re changing too many things with the characters like Steve imo.. seems like a repeat of Thor’s oocness. Seems like he’ll just be more like his actor Chris Evans than Steve Rogers/Cap.. But that’s another issue entirely..
There’s a contingent of people known as “Loki’s Resistance” who typically regard (MCU) Loki as a blameless victim throughout the films and Thor as little more than a bully and/or abuser. This is emphatically not my view of pre-Ragnarok Thor and Loki (and it annoys me when they co-opt my Ragnarok-critical posts…).
If you’re a Thor/Loki shipper who dislikes what “Thor: Ragnarok” did to their characters,
could you please either (1) like this post if you’re not comfortable with your followers knowing or (2) reblog if you’re fine with letting them know? Reblogs are helpful for more exposure, too.
I ask because I’m feeling very alienated from the fandom right now. It seems that the Thorki fandom is dominated by people who like the way Ragnarok retconned Thor’s and Loki’s characters. Meanwhile, it seems that most of the people who object to the way it hollowed out Loki’s character are Loki stans who never liked Thor, and do not regard the Thor of Thor: Ragnarok as a radical departure from his character in previous films. So I’d like to get an idea of how many of my fellow shippers feel the way I do.
@philosopherking1887 I’m not really a Thorki shipper, though I enjoy the fanart and sometimes read certain fics. I’m in it for the sibling dynamic, most of all.
However, I also don’t fall under the category of the Thor hating Loki stan.
I’ve personally always seen Thor as someone who is kind of oblivious to Loki’s pain and suffering, rather than deliberately mean. He tries to reach out to Loki but due to the circumstances they’re in, it falls short somehow. His worldview seems too black and white, too simplistic, when put into perspective with Loki’s situation. And that’s the main cause of friction between them.
Perhaps the only time I felt really frustrated with Thor was when he visited Loki in his cell in TDW. I can understand that he doesn’t want to share his grief with his estranged brother, but he still could’ve answered Loki’s question regarding Frigga’s death. He essentially just told Loki that he was visiting merely because he wanted to use Loki’s skills. Of course, the whole Svartalfheim mission changes Thor’s perspective on Loki. (Which Ragnarok completely destroys, twisting the knife by making the whole thing into a big joke).
I wanted the brothers to carry on the positive turn in their relationship post Svartalfheim. Alas, that wasn’t to be. 🙁
It is no coincidence that my main fic is written in post TDW timeline, and I’ve tried, in my own way, to have the brothers address their issues and restore their sibling relationship.
TL: DR: I don’t hate Thor, but yes, I do hate what Ragnarok warped him into. I did like some of the banter between him and Loki, but a majority of it just rubbed me the wrong way. Same with how he treated Bruce.
OK, thanks. I am trying to get an accurate count of people who *currently* ship Thor/Loki, at least as they were in the movies before “Ragnarok,” possibly (as I do) assuming the basic events of “Ragnarok” as canon but with a very different construal of some of their actions than was intended by the film. If you are not a Thorki shipper, please do not like the post, because I don’t want to get an inflated impression of how many allies I have within the ship.
If you’re a Thor/Loki shipper who dislikes what “Thor: Ragnarok” did to their characters,
could you please either (1) like this post if you’re not comfortable with your followers knowing or (2) reblog if you’re fine with letting them know? Reblogs are helpful for more exposure, too.
I ask because I’m feeling very alienated from the fandom right now. It seems that the Thorki fandom is dominated by people who like the way Ragnarok retconned Thor’s and Loki’s characters. Meanwhile, it seems that most of the people who object to the way it hollowed out Loki’s character are Loki stans who never liked Thor, and do not regard the Thor of Thor: Ragnarok as a radical departure from his character in previous films. So I’d like to get an idea of how many of my fellow shippers feel the way I do.
I think the relevant difference between these two scenes is that in the first, Thor is still hurt and bewildered and angry at Loki over what happened in The Avengers (and probably toward the end of Thor 1, too), while in the second, Loki isn’t shown as having any particular reason to be mad at Thor. (He probably should be mad at Thor for blowing his cover and potentially allowing Thanos to discover where he is, but the movie doesn’t even acknowledge that as a reason why Loki was pretending to be Odin. Or any reason other than “mischief, hur hur.”)
Maybe there is more continuity between Thor’s thoughtlessness toward Loki in earlier movies and in Ragnarok than I’ve acknowledged,but earlier on it seems more complex and well-motivated.
I don’t think I would say that Thor consistently “conceptualizes Loki as a bad person who needs to be fixed or managed” before Ragnarok.
Thor’s callousness in TDW seems put-on, deliberate, and painful even for him; in Ragnarok it’s just a matter of course.
In my experience hurt doesn’t work that way. They’ve never dealt with their issues, so I’m pretty sure it’s all festering. I think they’d both still be holding on to a lot of pain that relates to one another (and Odin, that gets attached to one another unfairly).
You know, I think that brings up something I hadn’t considered. Maybe the problem with how Thor acts towards Loki in Ragnarok isn’t the actions (at least most of the time *glances at that one scene that is too ooc*) or words themselves, but the feeling behind it. See, what I mean when I say that Thor sees Loki as a bad person, I think it’s, 1. pretty forced on his part and something he has to keep reminding himself of, and 2. something he sees as a new and hopefully temporary (though he tries not to hope) insanity Loki’s experiencing. It’s painful for him how far he feels Loki’s fallen, and he wants his brother back.
Ragnarok just kind of makes him mad at Loki, and you don’t feel the love that’s tangible even under the anger in the previous Thor movies and Avengers.
Honestly, I don’t feel like I can take any of Loki’s (or Thor’s) actions in Ragnarok to shed light on preexisting aspects of their character. Would Loki share Thor’s grief even while being (justifiably) mad at him? I think so, but Ragnarok is just so blatantly OOC all the time that I don’t think it counts as evidence in favor. Rather, the evidence is that throughout his three movies, Loki never disregards or dismissesThor’s feelings. He’s very attentive to them, whether he wants to flatter him, soothe him, provoke him, or outright wound him.
Of course I think Loki has a lot of reasons to still be pissed at Thor, but Ragnarok doesn’t frame it that way. It presents all of Loki’s grudges and resentments as childish and insignificant, things he just needs to grow up and get over. So the scene doesn’t present him as comforting Thor in spite of his hurt and anger; it presents him as trying to mend fences when Thor is still (justifiably, yes, but not as righteously as the movie makes out) pissed at him.
Your last point – “Ragnarok just kind of makes him mad at Loki, and you don’t feel the love that’s tangible even under the anger in the previous Thor movies and Avengers” –seems exactly right. Some of it surely is the words and actions themselves (it’s hard to believe he would say or do some of those things to someone he loves), but a lot of it is also the affect. Thor consistently has an air of “done with Loki’s shit” that’s supposed to show that he’s wised up, he has Loki’s number, he’s nobody’s fool anymore (pick your cliché), but all it says to me is that he’s given up on understanding Loki as a person and now just wants to control/manage him (as you said). And this might make sense if we were to accept Ragnarok’s retcon of Loki’s character as a capricious trickster who does bad shit just for the hell of it… but in light of the complexity of Loki’s emotions and motivations as shown in previous films, it just seems inexcusably cruel and obtuse (which also serves as an apt description for the entirety of Thor’s character in TR…).
P.S., on the subject of Thor figuring out how complicated Loki actually is, have you read my fic Starting Over, which is basically my fantasy version of Thor and Loki’s post-AOU reunion conversation (+ sex)?
I think the relevant difference between these two scenes is that in the first, Thor is still hurt and bewildered and angry at Loki over what happened in The Avengers (and probably toward the end of Thor 1, too), while in the second, Loki isn’t shown as having any particular reason to be mad at Thor. (He probably should be mad at Thor for blowing his cover and potentially allowing Thanos to discover where he is, but the movie doesn’t even acknowledge that as a reason why Loki was pretending to be Odin. Or any reason other than “mischief, hur hur.”)
Maybe there is more continuity between Thor’s thoughtlessness toward Loki in earlier movies and in Ragnarok than I’ve acknowledged,but earlier on it seems more complex and well-motivated.
I don’t think I would say that Thor consistently “conceptualizes Loki as a bad person who needs to be fixed or managed” before Ragnarok.
Thor’s callousness in TDW seems put-on, deliberate, and painful even for him; in Ragnarok it’s just a matter of course.
Yeah, he’s funny and all. And that was the point of the movie. But look at his past movies. He isn’t frantic, he isn’t the cause of all jokes, he isn’t comfortable around his friends most of the time. Bruce was stern, an incredibly intelligent physicist. He didn’t have this cute little worried attitude. And that bothers me. They made him stupid. They made his intelligence a joke in the movie. And maybe it’s good that he’s “happier” but it’s an incredibly polar change considering Ragnarok Bruce is picking up rsactly where Ultron Bruce left, so there’s no time for any character development. See the gifs for comparison. It just doesn’t seem like the same character.
They made everyone stupid. Ragnarok is either stupid or dickish and everyone suffers for it. Thor lying to Hulk and to Bruce about their alter egos, using Bruce without a second glance is such a dick move. Not funny, just… Ew.
@fuckyeahrichardiii also pointed out that this Bruce didn’t seem to care that he had spent 2 years killing people for fun as the Hulk. A major part of Bruce’s character in the two Avengers movies—and presumably also in The Incredible Hulk, though I haven’t seen it—is his guilt over the damage he does when he’s in Hulk form. In AOU, when Thor does his “report on the Hulk” and talks about the gates of Hel being filled with the screams of his enemies (which is how you do Thor humor, btw), Bruce groans and covers his face because he hates the idea of killing people. (And then Thor picks up on his discomfort and starts backtracking, because pre-Ragnarok Thor, while he may be a little obtuse about other people’s feelings, actually cares about them.) In fact, the reason Bruce/Hulk leaves Earth at the end of AOU is because he’s so distraught over the damage he did and the danger he put people in when Wanda messed with him in Johannesburg.
I loved Thor: Ragnarok as a standalone film, but as for its use of old characters (specifically Loki, Thor, and Bruce) it butchered them. Loki and Bruce were made incompetent, which is sad, because one of their most defining qualities is their intelligence.
I’m not sure how I would feel about it as a standalone film… I’d probably still think it relies too much on cringe humor, and that the protagonist is deeply unlikable, even apart from his complete discontinuity from the character as established in previous films.
As someone with a PhD myself, that “haha, Bruce has 7 PhDs but can’t pilot a spaceship” joke kind of stuck in my craw. The trope that “book smarts” or “book learning” are useless in a dangerous or urgent situation isn’t original or revolutionary; that kind of anti-intellectualism is all over the place in the culture. We’re invited to watch over-educated intellectuals fail at life in media from “The Big Bang Theory” to Irrational Man (no, I haven’t seen it and I don’t plan to, but I get the basic idea). In general, the Marvel comics and films don’t do that; characters like Tony Stark, Peter Parker, and Jane Foster are able to put their theoretical knowledge to successful use in emergencies. I guess someone decided that Marvel needed to give equal time to the old anti-intellectual canard.
Loki is the Philosopher King 