Better tag @sarah1281 on this one because it was her comment. I do think Loki had some culpability – maybe not in Odin’s death as such, but in the manner of it, and of course the fact that he didn’t have the opportunity to warn them about Hela. But no, I don’t think Loki killed Odin. I think Odin was very old and tired, had been putting off Odinsleep too much, and was devastated by the death of Frigga, his companion, advisor, and love. I suspect that he was also hollowed out by his thorough failure with Loki, and the fact that Loki was so angry with him that he was willing to wipe his memory, banish him, and usurp the throne. To the extent that that’s the case, Loki is indirectly responsible, but I do think it’s also Odin’s recognition of his own failure, which isn’t exactly Loki’s fault.
I wouldn’t assign much blame to Loki for Odin being unable to tell them about Hela. He had many years to do so. Loki’s responsible for Odin not being able to warn them from 2013 to 2017 (and based on his previous silence, and how little he actually tells them, I’m not convinced he would have warned them much further in advance).
And since I was part of that initial conversation that @sarah1281 was referring to, I feel it’s important to clarify my point of view. It aligns with @philosopherking1887′s. Furthermore, I wouldn’t list Odin’s death as one of Loki’s crimes, and I take issue not with Thor blaming Loki (I think it’s a perfectly reasonable reaction to losing a loved one), but to the movie suggesting he’s correct when he says “You did this.” There’s a difference between a character searching for someone to blame for a loss (an irrational, but normal reaction to tragedy), and a film agreeing with that character, and presenting no room for a discussion. To tie it back into the post the anon was reading, I think it highlights one of the weaknesses in Ragnarok that they introduce, but never address, this particular reaction Thor has to his father’s passing. Ragnarok does a decent job of acknowledging the family conflicts, and even comes up with a few that make perfect sense, but it doesn’t pay them off well, if at all (see how Loki’s heritage is brought up and completely ignored in a handful of seconds). Some of that’s the tone of the movie, and some of it’s a disregard for the previous films.
Better tag @sarah1281 on this one because it was her comment. I do think Loki had some culpability – maybe not in Odin’s death as such, but in the manner of it, and of course the fact that he didn’t have the opportunity to warn them about Hela. But no, I don’t think Loki killed Odin. I think Odin was very old and tired, had been putting off Odinsleep too much, and was devastated by the death of Frigga, his companion, advisor, and love. I suspect that he was also hollowed out by his thorough failure with Loki, and the fact that Loki was so angry with him that he was willing to wipe his memory, banish him, and usurp the throne. To the extent that that’s the case, Loki is indirectly responsible, but I do think it’s also Odin’s recognition of his own failure, which isn’t exactly Loki’s fault.
have you ever thought about the fact that since thor and loki are like 1000 years old the events of the entire marvel cinematic universe so far has probably been the equivalent of like…..two really, really bad weeks
this is why they can’t die in Infinity War tho. They are bigger than this. I want them to live and go on some cool space adventures with Guardians. Or alone. Or just settle and…
I want nothing more than for Thor, Loki, and Valkyrie to have Star Trek style space adventures. I want a floating spaceship kingdom with Thor ruling with his brother equally and for Valkyrie to find a hot alien wife. I want them to go on a thousand year hilariously indulgent romp through the cosmos. Please.
Oh my god, you’re a Valkyrie! I used to want to be a Valkyrie when I was younger.
There are script issues here. Why would Thor say, “Oh my God”? I’m pretty sure Thor doesn’t deal with a single God in any religious sense and he and his friends do admit to spending their wasted youth popping onto less evolved planets and BEING their gods for kicks and giggles. In NO social context does this make sense. Neither do contractions unless someone is speaking with a race that uses them.
I’m not bothered by contractions – every language has shortened forms. The “oh my God” is a serious problem, though. (We all have to be creative about that in fic, using Norns and Ymir and Yggdrasil for the standard Christian religious oaths…)
I have made it no secret that I am greatly dissatisfied with many aspects of Thor: Ragnarok, most especially the characterizations of Thor and Loki and the discontinuity with their characterization in earlier movies. Among more extreme Loki fans, including those who (reportedly) used to call themselves “Loki’s Resistance” and are widely known as “Loki-apologists” (I prefer “unconditional Loki-justifiers,” for reasons of precision), people have no trouble saying that they disliked the movie because of the way it thinned out Loki’s character. Loki fans who are in networks with the Loki-justifiers but do not hate Thor (as so many of the justifiers do) also have no trouble pointing out that Ragnarok messed up Thor’s character, virtually disregarding the process of maturation he had gone through in previous MCU movies.
However, it seems that more moderate Loki fans (who do acknowledge his flaws and misdeeds), including but not limited to Thor/Loki shippers, have been feeling pressured into silence about their dissatisfaction with the movie. Four such people have communicated with me about it under their own names, two relatively openly in replies to my posts, two in private messages; a few more have expressed similar sentiments in anonymous asks. I’m kind of concerned that smart, thoughtful people feel like they can’t express their views for fear of being shunned or bombarded with hate. (About a movie, FFS; this isn’t a matter of life and death!)
Maybe this is just a function of the overall climate of Tumblr, which a friend of mine has characterized as just a bunch of young people all agreeing with each other (in my more bitter moments, I’ve used the terms “groupthink” and “circle-jerk”). It seems that around here group identities revolve around people all sharing the same views. Arguments (or firefights, really) can only be had on a hostile footing across group lines; there’s not much of a chance for productive or friendly disagreement within a community. As a philosopher (and a Jew), this strikes me as extremely bizarre and more than a little creepy. I disagree with other philosophers about a lot of things, and we argue, and raise objections to each other’s papers, but we’re still friends, still enjoy many of the same things, still share (largely) the same basic values. There are subcommunities, to be sure, of those who agree about certain issues, but we are still a community, engaged in a common enterprise, in spite of (indeed, driven by!) our disagreements.
What can we do to make the fandom such that people feel comfortable expressing their actual views even if they disagree with the majority of the community, or just (as it may be) with the loudest voices? If the fandom is already open to such disagreement, how can we reassure people that they won’t be ostracized for holding minority/unpopular views?
I hope that some people with more standing in the fandom than I have will take an active part in opening it up to productive disagreement. All these “I thought it was just me” and “everyone’s been telling me I’m crazy” and “I was so relieved to see your post” and “I feel like I should just stfu if my interpretation is different from the main one” messages are making me kind of alarmed and kind of sad.
Loki is the Philosopher King 