I take an ethic course this semester and we had an interesting first lesson about different schools of ethics.
Kantian ethics, that are prevalent in Europe, value intention most. A person is good, when they had good intentions and do something for the right reasons, even if the outcome is horrible.
Consequentialist ethics are prevalent in anglophile (especially US) countries. There the intentions don’t matter at all and only the outcome of an action determines if a person acted in an ethically good way or not.
Explains a lot why people might determine if a person (in this case Thor) is acting good or bad.
OK, I have a lot to say about the original meta post… but the upshot is that I strongly disagree. One of many reasons being that in the MCU, Thor is pretty consistently the representative of Kantian/deontological (i.e., rule-based) ethics, while Odin and Loki lean more consequentialist. (P.S., on Earth I see Steve and Tony representing a similar contrast.) I always read “I’d rather be a good man than a great king” as “I’d rather keep my conscience clean than have to make decisions that trade lives for more lives.”
Now, it may be that now that Thor has accepted the mantle of kingship, he’s converted to consequentialism. But handing Loki over to Thanos is the kind of move that’s standardly used as an argument against consequentialism (or specifically utilitarianism). If Thor encountered Thanos or even heard of him on his travels, he must know how ruthless and cruel he is. He would know, or should be able to guess, what kind of horrific torture he would be condemning Loki to. Is that worth it for the mere possibility of protecting Asgard and Earth? Why should he trust Thanos to keep, or even make, a promise to leave them alone if Loki is turned over to him?
On we sweep with threshing oar Our only goal will be the western shore So now you’d better stop and rebuild all your ruins For peace and trust can win the day despite of all your losing
Coloured version. Hand inked, coloured with Krita. I’m having way too many feels for my boat immigrant people right now.
Thor: There won’t be a kingdom to protect if you’re afraid to act! The Jotuns must learn to fear me, just as they once feared you! Odin: That’s pride and vanity talking, not leadership. You’ve forgotten everything I taught you about a warrior’s patience. Thor: While you wait, and be patient, the Nine Realms laugh at us. The old ways are done! You’d stand giving speeches while Asgard falls! Odin: You are a vain, greedy, cruel boy! Thor: And you are an old man and a fool! Odin: Yes, I was a fool to think you were ready. Thor Odinson, you have betrayed the express command of your king. Through your arrogance and stupidity, you have opened these peaceful realms and innocent lives to the horror and desolation of war! You are unworthy of these realms! You’re unworthy of your title! You are unworthy of the loved ones you have betrayed. I now take from you your power! In the name of my father and his father before, I, Odin Allfather, cast you out!
WHOEVER HOLDS THIS HAMMER, IF HE BE WORTHY, SHALL POSSESS THE HAMMER OF THOR.
Hela’s use of Mjolnir once upon a time lends a whole new context to what Thor’s arc over his movies + the Avengers movies already was–his story is one of an immensely powerful god who must either learn to wield it with care towards others or be lost to evil and violence and cruelty, not only himself but everyone else around him. It lends an entirely new context to Odin’s reaction to Thor’s fight on Jotunheim and his words–words that must have been so much an echo of what Hela may have said once upon a time.
The realms must learn to fear her, just like her father. That he only sits there now and is a fool not to bring the other Realms under the hell of Asgard. And, just as he did with such a heavy heart, he had to cast her out, her violence and cruelty and vanity too much to bear.
Then again he must do the same with Thor.
Where Thor is different (and we do not know how many chances Odin gave Hela, though, she would not have wanted them or used them) is that he finds the strength to look around him when he’s pulled up short. That he becomes worthy of the hammer, that he becomes the great man and great king that his people need him to be.
He rules without Mjolnir, because his power is not sourced to it, his power comes from the same place Hela’s does, it comes from within himself and his people, it’s on the same level as hears. Thor is the redemption of Odin’s line, Thor is the inverse image of Hela and she of him. Where her greed and cruelty only grew, his was erased and nobility grew in its place instead.
I love the ending of Thor: Ragnarok, that Thor may not want the throne, but it only makes him all the more suited to it. That it’s the next step on the journey his story has taken over the course of these movies, that his people need him and he will sacrifice what needs to be, in order to lead them. Not because he wants power or fame. But because it’s right. It’s finally right.
Thor doesn’t need Mjolnir to show that he is worthy in and of himself. It was a beautiful weapon, it was more akin to a friend for all the years he had it with him. But it was still ultimately a weapon and Thor does not need it to remind himself to be a good man or a good ruler. He just simply is.
“It’s not the words ‘I’m here’ that tell him; those are late to the party. It’s the faint clap of the bottle stopper hitting the palm of Loki’s hand, then the softer echo of his fingers closing around it.
“Thor doesn’t even know whether he’s surprised or not; he can hardly tell what he feels. But he is a god and a king and a man of his word, so he opens his arms.”
Jumping on the post-Ragnarok hug fic bandwagon with you, @incredifishface and @raven-brings-light… and I’ve kept it gen for now, too. Gotta get the feelings out of my system first.
How did the philosophy reference get in there, you may ask? I dunno, man. These things just happen.
Loki is the Philosopher King 