THIS WAS SUCH A PERFECTLY EXECUTED RUNNING STORY THREAD.
Loki’s use of illusion magic is shown throughout the film, it’s used to trick or betray or keep his distance, it shows his vulnerability when Valkyrie caught him, and then finally to show that he’s really there on the ship.
That final moment has all the greater impact because we’ve seen it used throughout the movie and because we realize that it’s tied to showing where Loki’s at. Is he in a manipulative place? A desperate place? A selfish place? A vulnerable place? We see all of those, demonstrated through whether he’s present or just a magic spell.
And then we see him really there and we understand that he’s not just really there physically, he’s really there emotionally, too. He’s ready to be something more, to move on from the past, to try being a little more actually present in this life and this family he wants.
The culmination of the use of his illusion magic is used beautifully in this movie, that moment shows everything about how Loki has grown after all the shit they’ve all been through. And we get it because we’ve seen that he’s a wily sort, he’ll absolutely use that tool to keep his distance when he wants to.
So if he’s really there, then he really chose to be there, in person and for real.
Peeps- I’m having ideas about Loki and Heimdall interactions during Loki’s “reign”. Like what happened with Heimdall? What if there was communication between the two? Strained, angry, troubled, angsty, reluctantly bordering on confidante…?
I may have to fic this out
they are trying to keep thinks civil for the good of Asgard. Their meetings are tense and awkward as fuck. Loki doesn’t spend all day fucking about, he actually has some chops. His political instincts are as good as his father’s. He can see through every move and every intention. He only needs to fucking focus and work every now and again, and he will make a good king. Heimdall has experience and vision and keeps him on a very short leash: you shift your ass and do your kingly duties, and no playing silly buggers, and your secret is safe with me and we’ll get along just fine. Their relationship develops into a begrudgingly annoying yet surprisingly effective alliance. Asgard is actually in a period of peace, rebirth, prosperity and splendor like it hasn’t known since Thor’s exile, Frigga’s death, and everything going to shit. Also, this new, rejuvenated Odin is actually more fun than he has been in ages. Asgard is pleased. Heimdall and Loki will always be uncomfortable allies (Loki is a trickster, Heimdall sees all), but somehow it works.
I’m pretty sure Loki-as-Odin exiled Heimdall very early on, purportedly as a punishment for his assistance with Thor’s plot during TDW. I doubt that there was any communication between them at all during Loki’s reign.
I HAVE BEEN FLAILING AT LENGTH ABOUT LOKI’S CHARACTER ARC IN THIS MOVIE AND POOR @5ummit HAS HAD TO LISTEN TO ME GO ON AND NOW IT’S EVERYONE ELSE’S TURN.
“You’re late.” “You’re missing an eye.”
I am just so delighted by how the introduction of Hela into the family shook things out of their rut and how it made everything that happened before feel necessary. Like, I think TDW was necessary because Loki needed that time to work through being the worst villain the family, the black sheep, to wallow in it to realize that it actually wasn’t satisfying at all. He had his time being WOE IS ME, he had his time being king of Asgard, and none of it really satisfied him. So, when shit goes sideways as it always does, when he went back to trying to betray Thor, it felt hollow, because Thor had accepted that that was a choice he might make, that Thor wasn’t bothered by it.
And then there’s Hela. Who takes the place of the worst Odinkid and Loki cannot really define himself by that role anymore, he’ll never be THE WORST after this. Instead, he’s somewhere in the middle. And I love that the movie seemed really aware of the gamut of this family, that Hela was on the far end of just deliciously, wonderfully violent and cruel, Thor was on the other end of how he had come through the fire and stayed good. And that these two children were each half of Odin, that he was a conqueror, but he was also a father who loved, that they’re the two sides of him. And Loki is that middle ground as well, he doesn’t have to be the best at being good, he doesn’t have to be the best at being evil, his siblings have that covered.
He can be something else, something more.
That’s why I loved that line so very much. It’s frustrating to want it to be more serious (but, then, wasn’t TDW serious enough for all of us?) but I think it kind of worked for me, in that Thor felt like he had really made peace with everything. It felt like Thor had MOVED ON and that’s what REALLY got to Loki.
So the idea that Thor might be indifferent to Loki is troubling for him, because that’s a defining feature of who his character is. I don’t belong in the family; my brother doesn’t love me; I hate my brother. The idea that his brother’s like, “Yeah, whatever,” it’s an interesting development. But the two of them, that’s what I kind of loved about Ragnarok when I first read it. The two of them are placed in such an extraordinary situation where everything is unfamiliar; that their familiarity, literally as family members, becomes important.
Loki, for all that he pushes people away and betrays them and stabs them in the back, desperately does not ACTUALLY want to be given up on. Thor making real peace with the idea that they’re going to go their separate ways? Thor’s indifference to Loki trying to scheme and plot?
That’s what Loki absolutely cannot stand.
And that’s what the past movies are about–Thor trying to reach him, Loki pushing him away (to see if Thor will keep coming back) but when Thor MOVES ON, when Thor is done mourning and finds his equilibrium again, when Thor says, all right, well, this is what you want, then let’s do it and he means it?
It leaves Loki with the choice to make himself. He can’t pin this choice on Thor or even on Odin. He tries briefly, “Funny how [Odin]’s death should split us apart.” and Thor’s just like, I loved you, but we parted ways a long time ago. You do what you want to do, Loki. Stay in your predictability or be something more, whatever you choose, you choose.
And when it’s on LOKI to make that choice, suddenly he can’t bear to be left behind. Suddenly he can’t bear for Thor to not care about him. Suddenly he can’t bear not to be something more than what he was, because there’s nothing to rebel against and instead it’s up to no one but Loki to make that choice.
So he chooses something more. (In the most Extra and dramatic fashion possible a;skjlakjslajks “YOOOOOUR SAVIOOOOR IS HERE!” oh my god.)
I think Thor wasn’t worried about Loki getting out because he had the Commodore (a.k.a. the orgy ship). At the end of the movie we see the little ship perched on top of the big ship in some kind of docking station. I do think that Loki took the Tesseract, but I don’t think that’s how he got out of Asgard before it was destroyed.
Frankly, though, Thor really should have seen that coming when he sent Loki into the Vault. Did he really think that Loki was going to just let the Tesseract go flying off into space somewhere when Asgard blew up?
(P.S. Is anyone else kind of envisioning Thor and Valkyrie doing a Han and Leia at the end of Return of the Jedi?V: Loki wasn’t on that thing when it blew. T: He wasn’t. I can feel it.)
In some ways, but not as much as I feared. Actually, what I was really afraid of was that they would turn Thor into Kevin from Ghostbusters, or he would be the version of Thor we saw in the “Thor: Civil War” video. I was incredibly relieved to see that the stupid line in one of the trailers about Thor having more brains because he has more muscles did not make it into the movie.
The filmmakers were clearly aware of the possibility that Thor would come off as anachronistic and/or Tony Stark-like; Taika Waititi even said in an interview that Thor’s change in diction and demeanor could be explained by his having spent more time on Earth hanging out with Tony Stark and learning about sarcasm. There was room for some movement in that direction, but I think they went too far with it. Thor has shown a sense of humor in earlier movies, most notably in the scene in TDW where he and Loki commandeer the Dark Elf ship with a lot of brotherly bickering, but also in Age of Ultron. There’s a post that I’ve seen going around occasionally with all the instances of Thor “trolling” people in AOU; I think the “I am Thor son of Odin, and as long as I have life in my breast I am… running out of things to say” bit is the most memorable. But it was always kind of an understated humor.
I’ve seen some people saying that they see some of the character change as a reversion to the brash, cocky warrior-prince of the first Thor movie, but with more cunning and caution and a better sense of proportion. I guess I can see that, and I can sort of see how that might have happened as he gained some distance from the traumatic events that turned him into the grave, almost world-weary figure he presented in TDW and AOU… but again, I think they went too far in that direction. I’m trying to stay mostly positive about the movie, because for the most part I did like it, and it was not nearly as much of a travesty of the characters as I was afraid it might be. But yeah, I’ll admit to finding the abrupt character transformation somewhat jarring.
This is not something we’ve seen him do before. Not that he would have had any occasion to in previous movies, but this is kind of in a different category from other things he does with magic: mostly illusions, shapeshifting, and moving things around.
This is some wild-ass, blatantly self-interested speculation, but… what if the power to draw out other people’s memories is a relatively new ability that he gained from his interaction with the Mind Stone? Scarlet Witch got her powers from experimentation with the Mind Stone, and one of the things we’ve seen her do is get into people’s heads and make them experience things based on their worst fears and most painful memories.
This at least suggests that forcing people to re-experience memories is one of the things that the Mind Stone can do, in addition to co-opting their will to make them serve the aims of the wielder. I think everyone I know has dismissed the idea that Thanos was controlling Loki the way Loki controlled Barton and Selvig; that’s probably not something you can do to a magically powerful being like Loki. BUT Scarlet Witch was able to do the fear-exploiting thing with Thor, and Loki simultaneously experienced and forced the Valkyrie to re-experience her worst memory – that is something you can do to more powerful beings.
So… this provides some circumstantial evidence in favor of the theory I explore in my fic The Abyss Gazes Also about what happened between Thanos and Loki: that Thanos exploited Loki’s own fears, resentments, and insecurities and forced him to re-experience his most traumatic memories involving his family (especially Thor and Odin) to manipulate him into invading Earth on Thanos’s behalf and fighting against his adoptive family.
I was thinking exactly along these lines and am SO EXCITED that for wherever reason we have new Loki powers to play with!
I think he always had the abilities to tap into someone’s memories, there just wasn’t any place to showcase those abilities yet or maybe he just never bothered to practice them. And I think it isn’t clear if HE could see Valkyrie’s memories, or if he simply triggered her to see them.
If he did that to distract her, why not take her down before she recovers from the flashback?
Instead, he seemed only a little less dazed than she was at the end which (added to her rage at having to remember) allows her to take him out with one punch.
His stricken facial expression, as well as his general air of disorientation, did seem to suggest that he had seen it, too.
I love how none of the Asgardians were surprised that Loki fought alongside Thor to protect Asgard; they know he’s the trickster but they also know they can trust him when shit hits the fan.
He’s still their prince.
They also acknowledge that even under the guise of Odin, he kept them safe for four years.
He was a prince for 1000 years, and a respected warrior for a large chunk of that time.
He’s been going off the rails for 6 years, tops.
1000 vs 6.
Why wouldn’t most of them trust him? Even the bad things he’s done have been aimed at the Asgardian people.
I bring this up all the time, the average Joe Asgardian most likely viewed it all as “some odinson shit” when Loki went off to misbehave on Earth That One Time. Then went back to playing magic soccer or some such. I don’t flatter myself thinking immortal golden space people give a shit about New Yorkers.
Then Loki got some private slap on the wrist punishment (Only the guards in TDW saw his *actual* sentencing before the dark elves showed up) before he re-emerged to DIE protecting Asgard and by extension really all the realms from Malekith. So yeah, Loki is definitely looked upon favorably.
This is not something we’ve seen him do before. Not that he would have had any occasion to in previous movies, but this is kind of in a different category from other things he does with magic: mostly illusions, shapeshifting, and moving things around.
This is some wild-ass, blatantly self-interested speculation, but… what if the power to draw out other people’s memories is a relatively new ability that he gained from his interaction with the Mind Stone? Scarlet Witch got her powers from experimentation with the Mind Stone, and one of the things we’ve seen her do is get into people’s heads and make them experience things based on their worst fears and most painful memories.
This at least suggests that forcing people to re-experience memories is one of the things that the Mind Stone can do, in addition to co-opting their will to make them serve the aims of the wielder. I think everyone I know has dismissed the idea that Thanos was controlling Loki the way Loki controlled Barton and Selvig; that’s probably not something you can do to a magically powerful being like Loki. BUT Scarlet Witch was able to do the fear-exploiting thing with Thor, and Loki simultaneously experienced and forced the Valkyrie to re-experience her worst memory – that is something you can do to more powerful beings.
So… this provides some circumstantial evidence in favor of the theory I explore in my fic The Abyss Gazes Also about what happened between Thanos and Loki: that Thanos exploited Loki’s own fears, resentments, and insecurities and forced him to re-experience his most traumatic memories involving his family (especially Thor and Odin) to manipulate him into invading Earth on Thanos’s behalf and fighting against his adoptive family.
@philosopherking1887 Honestly, my inclination as well. It’s not exactly like Loki would have been around to experience this happening so he couldn’t project something that he knew or witnessed, he had to have reached into her mind.
I further thought that Loki may have also been able to blend some of these new powers into whatever the hell he did to Odin because Odin would not have known or expected his son to come at him with these abilities.
(Sidenote, my ‘funny’ head canon is that Odin regaining his mind is what caused the actual destruction of that Shady Acres old folks home, take that or leave it :p)
Oh, interesting point about Odin. That actually suggests that the Mind Stone allows someone to delete or alter memories, or maybe even implant false ones. I was resisting the idea that that was something Thanos could have done to Loki – even though it’s a much neater explanation of the “I remember you tossing me into an abyss” line – because I thought it would be more interesting, poignant, and ultimately fucked-up if he was able to get Loki to the point he was at in “The Avengers” using only Loki’s own memories and emotions as raw material…
This is not something we’ve seen him do before. Not that he would have had any occasion to in previous movies, but this is kind of in a different category from other things he does with magic: mostly illusions, shapeshifting, and moving things around.
This is some wild-ass, blatantly self-interested speculation, but… what if the power to draw out other people’s memories is a relatively new ability that he gained from his interaction with the Mind Stone? Scarlet Witch got her powers from experimentation with the Mind Stone, and one of the things we’ve seen her do is get into people’s heads and make them experience things based on their worst fears and most painful memories.
This at least suggests that forcing people to re-experience memories is one of the things that the Mind Stone can do, in addition to co-opting their will to make them serve the aims of the wielder. I think everyone I know has dismissed the idea that Thanos was controlling Loki the way Loki controlled Barton and Selvig; that’s probably not something you can do to a magically powerful being like Loki. BUT Scarlet Witch was able to do the fear-exploiting thing with Thor, and Loki simultaneously experienced and forced the Valkyrie to re-experience her worst memory – that is something you can do to more powerful beings.
So… this provides some circumstantial evidence in favor of the theory I explore in my fic The Abyss Gazes Also about what happened between Thanos and Loki: that Thanos exploited Loki’s own fears, resentments, and insecurities and forced him to re-experience his most traumatic memories involving his family (especially Thor and Odin) to manipulate him into invading Earth on Thanos’s behalf and fighting against his adoptive family.
Thor got buzzed by that disk thing how many times in this movie. At least four if not more. Yet I keep seeing posts about thor torturing loki by setting it off on him so he could get back to asgard? Like I don’t get it and I love Loki. Thor didn’t do anything wrong, cruel or mean. And he knew damn well that loki would get out of it. There is like a list a mile long of things loki has done to thor so I just don’t get the thor bashing. They had a great sibling interaction in this movie. And I think it was made clearer than ever that no matter how they might fight or annoy each other, they are brothers and they love each other as such.
Exactly! I don’t see the big deal. But I’m not one to talk, I nearly electrocuted my sister when I was a teenager, not on purpose but I rather enjoyed it.
Here are my problems with it (and note that I don’t hate Thor; I’m just troubled by this specific action):
1) Thor didn’t know how long it would take for someone to happen along, and it did seem to take a while. Thor got shocked several times, but only for a few seconds each time. Loki was being shocked continuously for at least 10 minutes.
2) Thor also didn’t know who would be the first to come along. Luckily it was Korg and he’s a humanitarian, so of course he’s going to turn the thing off. If it had been the Grandmaster, he probably would have turned it off to give Loki a chance to explain himself, and Loki could almost certainly handle him. But what if it had been Topaz? She might have killed Loki while he was still incapacitated. So Thor was taking a major gamble with Loki’s life, in a way that Loki wasn’t when he dropped Thor out of the Helicarrier in The Avengers – he knew Thor could use Mjolnir to get out.
Loki is the Philosopher King 