One of the lines in “Thor: The Dark World” that gets overlooked, I think (possibly because Marvel cut it from the final edit) was when Thor is talking to Frigga about Loki, and she says to him that he and Odin always shone so brightly, it was hard for Loki to find any sun for himself, or something to that effect.
Anyway, this is such a massively important line, because it basically tells us EVERYTHING about Loki’s childhood, and how he felt. And here again is yet another example of how absolutely WRONG Taika Waitit’s view of these characters was, given what I heard about him wanting to include a flashback in Ragnarok showing Thor as a sensitive and bullied child, and Loki as dark and mean. That would have been in DIRECT conflict with everything we know about these characters, just like everything else in Ragnarok is.
From what Frigga says to Thor, it’s plain as day that Loki as a child was always struggling just to catch up to Thor, to try and be equal to him, not just in Odin’s and Frigga’s eyes, but in the eyes of probably the entire kingdom. It tells us that Thor, as a boy, was as popular and well liked, as charming and charismatic and as easy to make friends as he is as an adult, and that Loki was very much the introvert, quiet, awkward and isolated. And from Loki’s desperation to win Odin’s approval in the first Thor film, I think it becomes apparent that that desperation grew directly from his feeling inadequate and lesser to the standard of both his father and his big brother growing up. And it’s just so unbelievably sad, to envision that. To envision Loki constantly struggling, trying to match Thor, trying to make himself seem as good as Thor for Odin, trying to make himself seem like a “true and worthy son”, as he says in the first film. How anyone could miss this about his character is beyond me, unless they’re being willfully obtuse.
And we see from this one line, that Loki’s entire motivation is based on a feeling of lack on his own part. He feels like he’s less. He feels like he isn’t as good as Thor, and that Odin must not love him because he’s not as good as Thor, and until he discovers he’s a Jotun, he doesn’t know why, and he can’t figure it out, and he keeps trying and trying to do the right thing to somehow make him, in his father’s eyes, Thor’s equal. Think of the kind of psychological effect that would have on a person, especially a young man growing up in the kind of culture Loki did. Think of the burden of constantly feeling like there’s something WRONG with you, because you’re constantly measuring yourself against the perfection of an older sibling who everyone loves, while everyone treats you like you’re strange, and even are at times outwardly hostile and cruel to you. Think of the weight of trying to figure out how to change yourself so that others will treat you like they treat your perfect older sibling, but not being able to, because you don’t really know what it is about you that makes everyone dislike or hate you in the first place. And then think of what it must have been like, to discover you’re from a race of beings who the people you’ve grown up around consider to be monsters, who are those people’s mortal enemies, and coming to the swift and awful realization that that must have been it all along. That THAT’S what was wrong with you. That that’s why you’ve always been an outcast.
I just think that one moment from The Dark World was so important for understanding Loki’s character.
And yet, once again, Marvel proves it’s own stupidity by cutting it out. Just like they cut out so many scenes from the first Thor film which showed Loki in a more sympathetic light. Gee, it’s almost like they didn’t want people feeling for him. Too bad they ended up doing so anyway.
WAITITI WANTED TO SHOW THOR AS BULLIED BY LOKI WHAT?!?!?!
Because he thinks the only way to make a hero likable and relatable is to show them as an awkward outsider. And since Thor is the hero… But of course this completely ignores/denies the “high brought low”/ “humble the proud” storyline of the first “Thor” movie.
Taika was not interested in “respectfully disrespecting” the previous movies; he just didn’t give a shit. And has no storytelling or character range, apparently.
So Marvel is saying Using Loki’s death as revenge motivation for Thor. Wasn’t the story going that Loki had been tortured and tormented by Thanos into attacking New York, and the fact that this was done to his brother couldn’t have been enough motivation for Thor? No, they had to just brutally kill him off and get him out of the picture because they’re at a loss as to what to do with him. Those brilliant minds at Marvel.
That awkward moment when your character has more class than your entire franchise and you need to dispose of him to make everything else look good.
But first they needed to make an entire movie devoted to stripping him of all the class, dignity, and pathos he had previously possessed.
They shouldn’t have pissed off Joss Whedon. He knew how to make all the central characters, including Loki, interesting in their own ways without any of them completely eclipsing any other. Markus & McFeely and the Russos are too clumsy to do that balancing act. Tony ended up being more compelling and sympathetic than Cap in what was officially a Cap movie, but the creators seem not to be aware of that.
TW’s interesting recreation of Loki’s “death” in Svartalfheim and Loki’s “betrayal” in Sakaar
(There are more than 90% similarities between the novel version and the film version when it comes to Thor 1 & Thor: The Dark World. So I feel it’s safe to say Thor: Ragnarok novel reflects the original movie script before Waititi’s 80% improvisation.)
In Thor: Ragnarok novel Thor’s first reaction to “Odin” changing back to Loki –
Thor: “How did you escape Death?”
Loki: “By evading its grasp in the first place, of course.”
Thor: “Only you would make a mockery of your own sacrifice.”
This Thor knew for sure his brother risked his own life to save him from the dark elves. He understood Loki’s play as more of self-mockery rather than self-delusion or narcissism (which would get his ideas across to the audience). And Thor didn’t blame Loki for anything except usurping the throne and blinding Odin’s mind.
Later in Sakaar when Loki helped them to escape, he told Thor he wanted to make up for his mistake –
Thor: “You’ll help us free Asgard from Hela’s grip when we arrive? I can count on you?”
Loki: “Of course. After all, I’m sure you blame me for her resurgence. It’s at least I can do.”
Then Thor admitted his own fault to Loki: “I should not have refused the throne when Asgard needed me most” and “Our self-centered conflict over Asgard has ruined our kingdom” and –
Thor: “I want to change. I want to be better. And I think you can, too. Helping us escape has shown you can take strides toward that.” He looked at Loki earnestly. “Make a fresh start, brother. It’s time.”
And Loki didn’t make an inexplicable “betrayal” later in the novel. The four of them came back to Asgard together, followed by the rebels’ big ship. (And the novel ends here.)
As a comparison, Thor’s reaction at the first sight of Loki in Thor: Gagnarok film – “Where’s Odin? Did you kill him?” Then “You faked your own death! You stripped Odin of his power! You left him to die and releasing Hela! And let’s go back than the past 2 days! Blah Blah Blah!” Then “Our path diverged long time ago” and “Life is about growth and change but you stayed the same”. – This guy pushed all the responsibility and blame to his adopted brother.
Gagnarok Thor, look at yourself first.
By the way, in the novel Thor treats Valkyrie, Hulk and Banner sincerely and kindly. None of these bullshits↓ exist.
#although waititi confessed to respectfully disrespect the early thor films #i mean no respectful disrespect to him
I think Taika’s narcissism shined through in his direction of the character of Thor. Because here Thor comes off as an uncaring asshole and not the sensitive guy we knew from previous films.
Does this mean I have to read the novel version…?
It definitely means I can place the blame for that characterization disaster squarely on Waititi (and Hemsworth!) and I don’t have to bring Eric Pearson (the screenwriter) into it. (Meanwhile, over at “Infinity War,” Markus & McFeely deserve *at least* as much blame as the Russos.)
I saw this conversation going in my feed about straights hating Ragnarok!Loki and lgbtq+ loving Ragnarok!Loki but then my page froze and I had to refresh; when I did I lost the post, but I was going to reblog it and say this:
I’m bisexual and the reason I hate Loki in Ragnarok is because that’s not the way he acts. Simple as that. Loki’s not a day drinking slutty twink, I beg to differ. Somehow over the years the Loki fandom seems to think that Loki just sleeps with everyone all the time any time and they think it’s hilarious and have turned it from funny/amusing into a nightmare that makes me sick to look at anymore because of how dumb and unbelievable and out of character it is for Loki.
As @lusty-loki said, anyone can like Loki– But (my opinion now) you cannot just project onto him what you really want him to be, straight or otherwise. Same as I don’t project onto Loki being bi just because I am. That’s why I dislike him in Ragnarok, because TW seemed to have no care or respect into Loki’s character and he just turned him into a twit without a brain who relies on Thor to get them out of spots and who only tries to deceive his brother (because betray is a strong word… just because I don’t come through on a promise to my sibling doesn’t mean I betrayed them, I just cheat on them by lying).
Loki’s character literally turned to crap. And because Ragnarok was the last in 3 movies with Loki as one of the secondary characters, it’s awful. But if it had been the first one in 3 movies it would’ve been fine and I never would’ve watched another Thor movie again. I came to Marvel because of complex characters and plots– and Loki drew me because of his mental health issues; which I also suffer. So before you go around crowing from the rooftops that Ragnarok was wonderful JUST BECAUSE it brought the weird and skewed fancentric Loki to life, please compare the past Loki that we initially fell in love with to this Loki, and I assure that you will understand my problem with the movie and director Taika Waititi. (who I hate because of some of the really bizzare/appalling things he says about Thor and Loki and the actors and etc in the name of “just a joke”)
My rant is over.
Perfectly put. That is such sickening bullshit to say you must be straight if you hate Ragnarok Loki. For all the points you laid out here. My brother is gay, and I loath Loki’s portrayal in Ragnarok. It didn’t even cross my mind that Loki is meant to come across as either straight or gay in Ragnarok. All I saw was a horrible dumbing down of the character to the point that he didn’t resemble who had had been AT ALL. It’s so typical of people who can’t accept when other people don’t like what they do to try and slap some horseshit label on them or accuse them of being bigoted in some way. I don’t give a crap whether Loki is gay, straight, bi or whatever. His sexual orientation has nothing to do with who he is. It’s everything else about his character that initially attracted me and continues to, despite Marvel’s fantastic attempts to destroy it.
Lmao what bullshit. I’m DEFINITELY not straight and I hate Ragnarok too
A friend of mine saw that same post, and she had responded that she was straight and hated Thor Ragnarok, but for reasons other than that, and the response was this
And it went downhill from there
Then after all the back and forthing, she then recieved one anonymous hate mail after the other.
I think these particular people here, aren’t here because they love Ragnarok, or because they love Loki, or any other reason except they want to antagonize, attack, and spread their hate all around here. I’m straight and I hated Thor Ragnarok because of how idiotically dumbed down they made Loki. I hate it because of the total character assisination and tearing apart of his character. I hate it because they stripped him of all powers and dignity, and used him, literally USED him, as a comedy prop. And it doesn’t matter if Loki is gay, bi or straight. Just look at that phrase “day drinking slutty twink” and how degrading and demeaning that is. How UN Loki all of that is.
Thank you for this. Another reason why I really don’t like Ragnarok. Loki would of never slept his way to the top. Makes me wonder if these “fans” bothered with the other movies and know what his character is like. Loki brought me out of darkness and Ragnarok…it wasn’t the Loki that drew me to him. He was only in Ragnarok for the sake of being there. He was crapped on with every gag and had no real substance. The writing for him was just thrown together. I’ve been disappointed since then with Marvel and the directors.
@lokis-queen05 YES, EXACTLY! Honestly I don’t think they did, and if they did they all for some reason seem to think that the previous movies featuring Loki and Thor were “bad”– especially the first Thor movies. Which I can’t understand because they were very good. TDW was a bit rushed, perhaps, but can you blame them? That was a huge story that, if done well, (and I think they did VERY WELL, all things considering) probably could’ve taken at least 3 hours.
The writing for Loki was definitely thrown together; but that’s what’s to be expected from 3 scripts or whatever that they had, and then Taika Waititi throwing that out and saying “improvise, boys, while I play a rock giant and give myself more lines than Loki!!”
Just a huge nightmare.
@mentallydatingahotcelebrity I really do not like TW. And so many think he is such a great director and made a masterpiece with Ragnarok. It’s anything but. I loved the first two Thor movies. For me it was a build up and then a let down with Ragnarok. Loki’s character development didn’t matter to TW. He made him how he wanted Loki not how he really was in the two Thor movies and Avengers.
God, every time I watch Ragnarok it hurts; Every action Loki does, everything, it’s almost as if I can HEAR TW saying “Fuck all your hard work, Tom, it doesn’t mean a damn– you don’t mean a damn– this is MY movie now” and I just CRINGE, but then I get pissed.
lol, are these idiots serious? That’s the best they can come up with to counter the people who don’t like Ragnarok? To make fun of them for being straight? lol. Wow, okay.
But everyone here has made salient points. The reasons we all have for hating Ragnarok, and in particular hating the way Loki was treated as a character and Tom was treated as an actor, are all absolutely legitimate and well founded. Taika Waititi is so plain as day an egotistical dick face who’s in love with himself and his own stupidity, and it’s clearly attracted a bunch of brainless twits to this franchise. Like’s already been pointed out, they don’t actually give a damn about Thor, or Loki, or the franchise. It’s just a platform for them to spread their own stupid shit and worship at the alter of their twit hero TW. Anytime someone uses derogatory language or remarks to describe someone or something they supposedly “like”, in this case Loki, I know they’re full of shit. You don’t call someone or something you like disgusting, degrading names. You don’t talk about them like they’re a joke, or someone to be made fun of. These people are just a bunch of hateful bitches who get off on their own, warped perceptions of how cool they think they are. But the reality is, deep down, they probably hate themselves, which is why they go around shitting on everyone else. It’s pathetic.
I think it’s of a piece with the people who say you must be a racist who doesn’t understand the spirit of the Maori people if you didn’t like “Ragnarok.” The only way people around here know how to argue is by trying to score oppression/social justice points. God forbid you should actually try to talk about the content of the films and the psychology of the characters.
There’s nothing wrong with day-drinking slutty twinks, as characters or as people, and I wouldn’t necessarily mind if Loki were one, but the problem is that “Ragnarok” reduced him to that. It stripped him of his intelligence, his complexity of motivation, his history of suffering and mental illness. And to the people saying that we fans of pre-Ragnarok Loki don’t want to see him get better or be happy: we do, but we need to see him actually work through his problems to get there. Mental illness isn’t cured magically, nor can it, in real life, simply be retconned away. And TW certainly doesn’t earn any “social justice” points by making Loki’s suicide attempt into a joke.
P.S. I’m bi and I know people who are neither straight nor cis who hated “Ragnarok” and its characterization of both Thor and Loki.
If they wanted to tell a story about how Odin abused one of his children for imperialist purposes, why didn’t they just use the character who fit that description who already existed instead of inventing a new one out of whole cloth?
Because it would have taken the spotlight of their precious Saakar and their toilet humor. If Loki would have being the antagonist, the movie would have being driven to Tom no matter what, becasue he is… A better actor than Chris. Period. Just like RDJ is better actor than Evans and CW was more driven by his performance. He couldn’t have Loki taking the spotlight and actually delivering something close to deep, even as an antagonist.
Instead of that TW brought one of the best actress of her generation, made hype around her because she was strange to Marvel and would create more fans… And put her in a role so empty that it makes me angry in her behalf as an actress myself.
Ragnarok could of been so much better but they got writers and a director who wanted to push Loki/Tom aside. One thing that still has me upset are some of the pictures of the cast. It’s all of them except Tom. Makes me wonder if he really was happy with that movie. Since TDW when they brought Loki back from the dead, Marvel has been wanting him out. It’s evident with IW. Taika Waititi has such a love for Chris, that it I could see that Loki’s sl was never going to play out like it should of. Its bad when Marvel won’t get directors and writers that actually do care for a character and just favor some characters over others. No way are they ever going to bring Loki to the front of the main characters. Even if he is loved more and has more fans.
^This! I noticed, too, that Tom is noticeably absent from a lot of Ragnarok bts media. But they sure paraded him around exhaustively during IW press(not that I’ll complain about the opportunity to see him as often as possible). Almost like they knew if we knew ahead of time that his role was only a few minutes long, we wouldn’t care about IW as much. This is just MY opinion, of course.
Alot of time was spent building up the threat, building up the character, showing how strong and dangerous he was. But, at the end of the day, I think the thing that makes it work is Tom. He breathes alot of life into Loki. – Joss Whedon
As said before:
Tom was the one who made Loki actually Loki.
Even Feigie had to admit that “what Tom has done with Loki is beyond our wildest expectations”.
And you know what? Joss Whedon – unlike Taika Waititi, Markus & McFeely, and the Russos – knew how to use Loki’s character depth and Tom’s acting ability.
Someone: In Thor: Ragnarok, for the first time we see Loki acting mischievous and hedonistic, but ultimately heroic! We see Loki acting like actual canon Loki! But you guys only like him when he’s talking about subjugating the Earth, spewing the typical mustache-twirling, one-dimensional villain lines.
Me: What Thor did you watch where Loki’s a one-dimensional villain? What Avengers did you watch where Loki’s a mustache-twirling villain? WHAT THOR: THE DARK WORLD DID YOU WATCH WHERE LOKI’S A FUCKING VILLAIN?!
Also, like… what “actual canon”? The comics? Which comics: classic comics or recent ones (i.e., Agent of Asgard and later)? The MCU characters are not exactly the same as the comics characters – which would actually be impossible, because they’ve been reinvented so many times in the comics; the MCU has to pick one characterization and stick with it. Loki’s characterization in Thor 1 was, I think, modeled on Loki in the “Blood Brothers” and “The Trials of Loki” miniseries, where he’s portrayed as a tragic anti-villain.
But I get the sense that in the recent comics, Loki still has more psychological depth and angst that the writers take seriously than Loki in Thor: Ragnarok, since he’s struggling with his evil past incarnations. And that the comics don’t mock his mental health problems. (I don’t know much, since all I’ve seen is panels people post on here… I’m still struggling to work my way up to his reincarnation as Kid Loki, but the older comics are slow going.)
Not sure if you saw this epically ridiculous thread… but I spend some time at the bottom explaining why Loki in Thor 1 was an “interesting, conflicted trickster” and not the “bland pretentious baddie” that the TR/Waititi/Thor* stans seem to think he was. Istg, they didn’t even watch the previous movies… or whenever they watch a movie it gets turned into a simplistic cartoon version.
I just want a shout out to all those people who loved Ragnarok, but who are adult enough to accept that there were people who disliked it or who disliked things about it. Thanks for being mature adults.
For the record, I don’t hate the movie. I just don’t think it was the greatest thing to happen to the MCU.
That’s cool. And we’re alsoracists; mustn’t forget that.
This is what people say when they don’t have real arguments: they resort to hot-button insults and death wishes/threats.
Bless your sweet heart @mentallydatingahotcelebrity – Bless your posts! I feel exactly the same! I agree with you about Hela being Loki 2.0 – she’s not an original character. She had no business being in their family like that. All they did was give her Loki’s backstory. They took that away from him too. As if to say, “Loki’s nothing special, his pain doesn’t mean shit – look at Hela”. Same beef with Odin, same unfavorited child, same disappointment locked away for eternity. That’s not original! THAT’S LOKI!!
They even gave her his lines,(“kneel”) and his colours – Waititi said Loki couldn’t wear his colours in this because “there was already enough green in the movie” – that makes as much sense as saying “Sif couldn’t be in the movie because there were already enough female badasses”. It’s bullshit, they stripped Loki of everything, everything that makes Loki Loki. They brough on a third sibling who had no business being there. They wedged Hela between Loki and Thor. Anything and everything to take the attention off of Loki. Recycled his story and gave it to Hela. Then they kept repeating “Loki has become predictable” like it was their mantra. Of course he was predictable – they didn’t let him have anything else!!
Ragnarok was Taika Waititi’s vessel to parade around a big F U to Loki and his fans. He insinuated the worst about him, turned him into a court jester, he tore him to pieces, mocked and ridiculed him, and left him like a shell. That’s part of the reason we got what we got in Infinity War.
I don’t mean to be disrespectful to those who love this movie, but I am tired of being dumped on about this. Nobody’s going to think twice about offending those who are seriously hurting from this movie, but yet we are expected to tiptoe around those who are eating it up. If what you wanted was a weak, powerless, lazy, “twink” of a Loki, then congradulations. But for those of us who didn’t, let us hurt, let us grieve, let us rant, and please just let us be.
Omg, exactly!
I’ve hated so deeply this way to strip off from Loki anything that was his own. His powers, his sassiness, his mood, his colors (what kind of sloppy excuse is “There’s so much green in the movie”?? I’m so baffled every single time TW open his mouth…).
They give us a character who’s not our Loki. The Loki we know. The Loki we love. Thor Ragnarok forced in our throats this poor parody of Loki, with no progression…just a silly knife-thrower. For not to mention how sad would it be for Tom let be pushed back in order to make room to all the silliness.
Bring back our Loki. The God. The Trickster. The Smart one. The Brilliant. The Green and Gold God.
The God of Mischief.
Thank you! I thought it was just me. Must as I loved Thor 3 as a film, I hated the way it pretty much emasculated Loki. I feel that was deliberate, to pave the way for Infinity War (& subsequent plot device). Loki (& his fans) deserved better.
Thank you for putting my thoughts so succinctly @thranduilista
Every time someone calls Gagnarok the best Thor movie I lose 12 years of my life
Same.
Jup
Then parish
perish* :))
Clearly they meant we should form our own parish. The new Protestant Reformation, where the high church blasphemy we’re protesting is the worship of a false idol and the acceptance of a clearly apocryphal document as the new and most important revelation.
Loki is the Philosopher King 