Tag: thor ragnarok hate

How Ragnarok Took Everything From Loki and Its Consequences

philosopherking1887:

lucianalight:

thatmainblog:

thatmainblog:

lucianalight:

thatmainblog:

thatmainblog:

starscreamloki:

lucianalight:

I wanted to write this post since I
watched TR but I wasn’t calm enough for it until now. Even writing so little
about how TR unfairly treated Loki’s character and disrespected him and his
fans in my TR reviews made me angry enough to start shouting in my head and
rendered me unable to write it the way I wanted. Then IW happened and it was
the cause for another wave of rage in me. So it took me a long time.

We always talk about how TR
disrespected Loki and took away a lot of his canon characterizations and
motives and his arc from him. I noticed we never explained it in details and it
caused a lot of misunderstandings about why we hate TR and what we mean. So
this is a detailed explanation of how TR took everything from Loki.

Keep reading

This sums up why I hate Gagnarok! Thank you!

Honestly Ragnarok revived thor as a character. If not for it we probably wouldn’t even have a chance at getting more thor content let alone loki content after A4. The context of the events made it have room for more comedy, yeah. Some of it was still reinvented yes, sure, but most people, casuals and fans alike, kinda didnt really gaf about thor or his movies before that. But you wanna be mad about loki not being as emo dark broody? Especially when yall want him to have some happy in his life? Okay. He probably at least has some chance of being revived now. More than he would have without Ragnarok making so many more people give a shit about thor. Hell it made people like BANNER. Banner made the most sense to change after being Hulk so long and it messing with his head but think about it, people like BANNER now. Even Hulk is more interesting now ffs. Even the side characters were so interesting that people want more of them. If they aren’t already planning to retcon lokis death in a4 he’s probably not coming back. Ever. But at least post Ragnarok there is more of a chance. Even Tom seems to be acting like its final this time. What was it, 2 years they told him ahead of time? Also, they had PLANNED for it to be final the first time until at test screenings people didn’t buy it. Not because people were fans of loki and begged for more of him at them, but because people didn’t think it was real. Marvel went into those screenings thinking they had done a good job at completing lokis character. If a retcon isnt planned they probably think they did a good job this time too. Which brings me to my next point. Marvel is SHIT at giving satisfying endings to characters. Trash. Utter fucking garbage. It’s their BIGGEST short coming. No one in the mcu is even close to ready for their storyline to be wrapped up properly. None of their archs have reached a satisfying or complete point. And we know more people are gonna stay dead in A4. However it ends for any of these characters whenever the time comes for them to either peace out or be killed off its gonna leave people wanting for more. And unless Marvel hires some new writers to consult with about character development and endings this is what were gonna be stuck with. Every time. With every character. Too may casual fans just dgaf about there being more depth and that’s who they’re appealing to the most because why do more when most people who watch these things have little to no investment in the characters and are just there to watch the next marvel movie because they’re generally entertaining. Why put in more effort and risk more storytelling wise if what they’re doing already works for most people. Guys, if Loki is permanently gone at least he got a taste of happiness before they did it. That was the best they were gonna give as an ending. Its probably the best were gonna get out of any characters ending in this series.

Honestly yall are way too invested in characters and storylines marvel is NEVER going to do justice for. Never going develop consistently for. Never going to properly complete archs for. Never going to fully flesh out. Never going to tie things up satisfyingly for. Never going to make definitive endings feel complete for. Never. This series is great, for what it is. It has gone above and beyond for what it is, but its still just what it is. A superhero series for the masses. This series isnt a masterpiece and it isn’t going to be. Marvel will always go right to whatever they think is gonna make them the most money at the time and in doing so will skip all of the steps of story and character development needed to have gotten there naturally if that’s what it takes. They dgaf. If something isn’t working well enough they have 0 interest in developing it to a point where it will and will just skip 10 steps or more ahead instead to get there. Too bad so freakin sad. This isn’t a surprise. Everyone on Ragnarok loved doing that movie. Yeah it was a reach in many ways, but they did the best damn job making sense of it that they could. Marvel was never gonna give them a few more thor movies inbetween to develop to a more comedic point. Sorry. They thought, hey not nearly as many people like thor as we need. Ok what can we do? And Ragnarok is what they came up with, and it worked. They got exactly what they wanted. And Chris was over old thor too so be mad at him as well because he was a big part of this dialogue. Tom seems content with Lokis IW end so be mad at him too. They know how marvel runs and enjoy it for what it is. That’s all anyone can do. Idk what else to say. I prefer more from stories and characters too but I know this isnt where to look for that. Just be glad it’s not sherlock series 4.

It really amazes me that in a post about “why we don’t like what TR did to Loki” with a complete list of explanations I get an answer about what is assumed to be TR’s improvements to Thor franchise. Which is a matter of personal taste really, because I didn’t like how TR made Thor and Banner ooc and I know many people who agree with me. And I have enough reasons for my dislike too. But I don’t ask anyone to agree with me. That’s my opinion and I don’t care about how many more people love those new retconings of the characters. The amount of people liking or disliking sth doesn’t prove that thing is better or worse. I’ve seen that this post is liked or reblogged by people who liked TR and it shows that they got the point and respected it. Sth that this last reblog managed to missed:

“Also, they had PLANNED for it to be final the first time until at test
screenings people didn’t buy it. Not because people were fans of loki
and begged for more of him at them, but because people didn’t think it
was real. Marvel went into those screenings thinking they had done a
good job at completing lokis character. If a retcon isnt planned they
probably think they did a good job this time too.”

That is exactly my point. People didn’t buy it in TDW because Loki was a complicated, powerful and intelligent character and they knew as long as Loki stay like that, no one ever going to buy his death. So they did retcon everything about him, in a movie that came out four years after the last one which make people forget a lot of things. Joke’s on them since a lot of people still don’t believe it.

It also amazes me in a post with detailed explanation of Loki’s characteristics which none of them is about Loki being “emo dark broody”, someone manages to get this non-existence meaning:

“But you wanna be mad about loki not being as emo dark broody? Especially
when yall want him to have some happy in his life? Okay.”

You know there is a complete difference between this and having real and just grievances that need to be addressed, right?

And thank you so much for pointing out that we are “way too invested in characters and storylines”! People don’t have the same level of passion about things and they don’t have to and it’s not anyone’s place to tell them how much they should/shouldn’t feel/think about it. And when I see the storyteller don’t give a damn about their own canon stroylines and inconsistency and characterization and it’s all about money now, I will call them out on their BS and people have every right to do so.

I don’t have to accept it or be OK with it.

LOL. Loki is not that complicated. He is Scar who didn’t kill Mufasa. Yes, he is relatable to a degree. But people who have gone through similar stuff to what he has don’t just get to kill people because of their real and just grievances and keep being interesting and complex people they are just murderers. He is a character so he can be forgiven for intrigue but he’s not someone you’d be thrilled with, even knowing his history, if he was real and came to kill 83 people then who knows how many more when he let the aliens the fuck through. Not to mention stabbing his brother because how dare you stop me from taking out my feelings on innocent people due to my real and just greaviences. The only people who’d be into him are the types who write to serial killers in prison. He is not the epitome of character depth or development. He is far from the first character like this and wont be the last. His story has been repeated again and again since Shakepeares Hamlet in god damn 1603 with minor diffrences in each adaptation. Hiddleston’s acting is what sells the character the most. And if he looked like a young danny devito I wonder how complex and interesting people would still think he is. People didn’t buy the death because it was all of a sudden he’s helping! Then… dying? Wut? It just didn’t work. It was rushed and didn’t feel like a genuine ending for the character. It wasn’t omg this complex intelligent powerful character from hamlet in 1603 no way how dare we dont believe. It felt like they intended to keep him alive all along before they revealed it. They didnt change him to make people buy it LMFAO no one fucking buys it still because this death was dumb as fucking shit too. Where the damn hell have you been they changed him so people would buy it LMFAO. Marvel is just fuck all bad at endings. That’s it. Khaleesi it is known. Just… wow. You missed the damn point of my replies susan and I bet you’re gonna miss them again and send me song long ass mark Gattis level dodgy bullshit. I guess I’m just dumb af though even though I’m not the one tagging shit gagnarock -and calling out people who arent on this site to even read it and would probably laugh if they did read it because they dgaf what you think- and tried to offer my insight on the matter since this site is a kinda open dialogue sort of place ya know and this post showed up in a tag I follow. But yeah fuck me for having an opinion. And it’s not anyone’s place? Where the fuck in the law is that? I can think your opinion is wrong and tell you that all I want. But oooo respect. Also not law. Ooo but my opinion is that you being this way makes you a bad mean person. Cool I guess. Not fact. And back to a past point, this has happened in the mcu since the early days to characters before Loki. It’s not a surprise. They werent, and aren’t, gonna give anyone a satisfying development or ending. A surprise was sherlock series 4 and the hate toward the fans from the writers who were mad that the fans hated it, who included digs at the fans and their theroies in the episodes because they hated them so much. Be mad susan. or just watch the lion king or read hamlet or google all the other past lokis that may have gotten full closure and picture them as tom hiddleston dressed up as Loki. Who again disagrees with your opinions. As does chris. And Ruffalo. I may also just block you if you reply without reading fyi because I’m done having fun with this. If you send hate I’ll make a new blog lol. I mostly lurk so whatever. The reblogs people have made of mine will still exist 🤷‍♀️. Have fun in the pissed off about an adaptation of hamlet fandom susan.

Omg wait I FORGOT. have you guys seen full metal panic? It was serious with some comedy, then had a comedy fluff season, then went back to serious with even less comedy. Stuff like that can happen you know. Thats just one example too. Or they could hybrid it to please both sides. Lots of people want more thor or a revengers series now. Ragnarok saved thor for most fans and it has a chance at getting more content now. Maybe they will surprise you since thor is so much more popular now. Maybe Ragnarok is a god send and you’re jumping the gun. I want a hybrid of thor 1 & 2 + Ragnarok personally. I think thatd fly with most people.

Wow! Congratulations! You are the first person I’m going to block in the fandom! And it’s not even about your absurd opinions. I don’t block people over it. It’s because the level of your disrespect and rudeness is intolerable. Even the trolls I encountered were more polite which is saying sth about you. I would never stoop to your level and send hate to anyone. This is going to be here for my followers because most of them share the same opinions as me and no one deserves to receive this kind of attitude.

The level of eloquence and depth of thought here is, er, astonishing.

“Let’s not ask for any kind of character coherence in popular art, because it’s just popular. It’s not Hamlet. Did I mention it’s not Hamlet? And you should have the exact same feelings about a fictional villain as about real-life serial killers because fiction is identical to reality. Except you shouldn’t care about fiction. Why am I on a fandom site again? Also I’m completely certain Tom Hiddleston is happy about things because I’m really good at interpreting people’s body language and facial expressions. Hamlet was also really happy about how his story ended.”

Oh good Lord, now they’ve changed their URL to “pissedathamletsince1603.” I see they came up with one bizarre comparison that they thought was so incredibly clever they felt compelled to keep repeating it. That and the fact that Hamlet was published in 1603. I guess because knowing a historical date makes you look smart… unless you keep repeating the same one, which arouses the suspicion that it’s the only one you know.

It’s kind of difficult to extract a coherent point, but now I’m starting to think that they’re saying Loki *is* Hamlet and Hamlet is overrated. Does anyone speak word-vomit?

How Ragnarok Took Everything From Loki and Its Consequences

lucianalight:

thatmainblog:

thatmainblog:

lucianalight:

thatmainblog:

thatmainblog:

starscreamloki:

lucianalight:

I wanted to write this post since I
watched TR but I wasn’t calm enough for it until now. Even writing so little
about how TR unfairly treated Loki’s character and disrespected him and his
fans in my TR reviews made me angry enough to start shouting in my head and
rendered me unable to write it the way I wanted. Then IW happened and it was
the cause for another wave of rage in me. So it took me a long time.

We always talk about how TR
disrespected Loki and took away a lot of his canon characterizations and
motives and his arc from him. I noticed we never explained it in details and it
caused a lot of misunderstandings about why we hate TR and what we mean. So
this is a detailed explanation of how TR took everything from Loki.

Keep reading

This sums up why I hate Gagnarok! Thank you!

Honestly Ragnarok revived thor as a character. If not for it we probably wouldn’t even have a chance at getting more thor content let alone loki content after A4. The context of the events made it have room for more comedy, yeah. Some of it was still reinvented yes, sure, but most people, casuals and fans alike, kinda didnt really gaf about thor or his movies before that. But you wanna be mad about loki not being as emo dark broody? Especially when yall want him to have some happy in his life? Okay. He probably at least has some chance of being revived now. More than he would have without Ragnarok making so many more people give a shit about thor. Hell it made people like BANNER. Banner made the most sense to change after being Hulk so long and it messing with his head but think about it, people like BANNER now. Even Hulk is more interesting now ffs. Even the side characters were so interesting that people want more of them. If they aren’t already planning to retcon lokis death in a4 he’s probably not coming back. Ever. But at least post Ragnarok there is more of a chance. Even Tom seems to be acting like its final this time. What was it, 2 years they told him ahead of time? Also, they had PLANNED for it to be final the first time until at test screenings people didn’t buy it. Not because people were fans of loki and begged for more of him at them, but because people didn’t think it was real. Marvel went into those screenings thinking they had done a good job at completing lokis character. If a retcon isnt planned they probably think they did a good job this time too. Which brings me to my next point. Marvel is SHIT at giving satisfying endings to characters. Trash. Utter fucking garbage. It’s their BIGGEST short coming. No one in the mcu is even close to ready for their storyline to be wrapped up properly. None of their archs have reached a satisfying or complete point. And we know more people are gonna stay dead in A4. However it ends for any of these characters whenever the time comes for them to either peace out or be killed off its gonna leave people wanting for more. And unless Marvel hires some new writers to consult with about character development and endings this is what were gonna be stuck with. Every time. With every character. Too may casual fans just dgaf about there being more depth and that’s who they’re appealing to the most because why do more when most people who watch these things have little to no investment in the characters and are just there to watch the next marvel movie because they’re generally entertaining. Why put in more effort and risk more storytelling wise if what they’re doing already works for most people. Guys, if Loki is permanently gone at least he got a taste of happiness before they did it. That was the best they were gonna give as an ending. Its probably the best were gonna get out of any characters ending in this series.

Honestly yall are way too invested in characters and storylines marvel is NEVER going to do justice for. Never going develop consistently for. Never going to properly complete archs for. Never going to fully flesh out. Never going to tie things up satisfyingly for. Never going to make definitive endings feel complete for. Never. This series is great, for what it is. It has gone above and beyond for what it is, but its still just what it is. A superhero series for the masses. This series isnt a masterpiece and it isn’t going to be. Marvel will always go right to whatever they think is gonna make them the most money at the time and in doing so will skip all of the steps of story and character development needed to have gotten there naturally if that’s what it takes. They dgaf. If something isn’t working well enough they have 0 interest in developing it to a point where it will and will just skip 10 steps or more ahead instead to get there. Too bad so freakin sad. This isn’t a surprise. Everyone on Ragnarok loved doing that movie. Yeah it was a reach in many ways, but they did the best damn job making sense of it that they could. Marvel was never gonna give them a few more thor movies inbetween to develop to a more comedic point. Sorry. They thought, hey not nearly as many people like thor as we need. Ok what can we do? And Ragnarok is what they came up with, and it worked. They got exactly what they wanted. And Chris was over old thor too so be mad at him as well because he was a big part of this dialogue. Tom seems content with Lokis IW end so be mad at him too. They know how marvel runs and enjoy it for what it is. That’s all anyone can do. Idk what else to say. I prefer more from stories and characters too but I know this isnt where to look for that. Just be glad it’s not sherlock series 4.

It really amazes me that in a post about “why we don’t like what TR did to Loki” with a complete list of explanations I get an answer about what is assumed to be TR’s improvements to Thor franchise. Which is a matter of personal taste really, because I didn’t like how TR made Thor and Banner ooc and I know many people who agree with me. And I have enough reasons for my dislike too. But I don’t ask anyone to agree with me. That’s my opinion and I don’t care about how many more people love those new retconings of the characters. The amount of people liking or disliking sth doesn’t prove that thing is better or worse. I’ve seen that this post is liked or reblogged by people who liked TR and it shows that they got the point and respected it. Sth that this last reblog managed to missed:

“Also, they had PLANNED for it to be final the first time until at test
screenings people didn’t buy it. Not because people were fans of loki
and begged for more of him at them, but because people didn’t think it
was real. Marvel went into those screenings thinking they had done a
good job at completing lokis character. If a retcon isnt planned they
probably think they did a good job this time too.”

That is exactly my point. People didn’t buy it in TDW because Loki was a complicated, powerful and intelligent character and they knew as long as Loki stay like that, no one ever going to buy his death. So they did retcon everything about him, in a movie that came out four years after the last one which make people forget a lot of things. Joke’s on them since a lot of people still don’t believe it.

It also amazes me in a post with detailed explanation of Loki’s characteristics which none of them is about Loki being “emo dark broody”, someone manages to get this non-existence meaning:

“But you wanna be mad about loki not being as emo dark broody? Especially
when yall want him to have some happy in his life? Okay.”

You know there is a complete difference between this and having real and just grievances that need to be addressed, right?

And thank you so much for pointing out that we are “way too invested in characters and storylines”! People don’t have the same level of passion about things and they don’t have to and it’s not anyone’s place to tell them how much they should/shouldn’t feel/think about it. And when I see the storyteller don’t give a damn about their own canon stroylines and inconsistency and characterization and it’s all about money now, I will call them out on their BS and people have every right to do so.

I don’t have to accept it or be OK with it.

LOL. Loki is not that complicated. He is Scar who didn’t kill Mufasa. Yes, he is relatable to a degree. But people who have gone through similar stuff to what he has don’t just get to kill people because of their real and just grievances and keep being interesting and complex people they are just murderers. He is a character so he can be forgiven for intrigue but he’s not someone you’d be thrilled with, even knowing his history, if he was real and came to kill 83 people then who knows how many more when he let the aliens the fuck through. Not to mention stabbing his brother because how dare you stop me from taking out my feelings on innocent people due to my real and just greaviences. The only people who’d be into him are the types who write to serial killers in prison. He is not the epitome of character depth or development. He is far from the first character like this and wont be the last. His story has been repeated again and again since Shakepeares Hamlet in god damn 1603 with minor diffrences in each adaptation. Hiddleston’s acting is what sells the character the most. And if he looked like a young danny devito I wonder how complex and interesting people would still think he is. People didn’t buy the death because it was all of a sudden he’s helping! Then… dying? Wut? It just didn’t work. It was rushed and didn’t feel like a genuine ending for the character. It wasn’t omg this complex intelligent powerful character from hamlet in 1603 no way how dare we dont believe. It felt like they intended to keep him alive all along before they revealed it. They didnt change him to make people buy it LMFAO no one fucking buys it still because this death was dumb as fucking shit too. Where the damn hell have you been they changed him so people would buy it LMFAO. Marvel is just fuck all bad at endings. That’s it. Khaleesi it is known. Just… wow. You missed the damn point of my replies susan and I bet you’re gonna miss them again and send me song long ass mark Gattis level dodgy bullshit. I guess I’m just dumb af though even though I’m not the one tagging shit gagnarock -and calling out people who arent on this site to even read it and would probably laugh if they did read it because they dgaf what you think- and tried to offer my insight on the matter since this site is a kinda open dialogue sort of place ya know and this post showed up in a tag I follow. But yeah fuck me for having an opinion. And it’s not anyone’s place? Where the fuck in the law is that? I can think your opinion is wrong and tell you that all I want. But oooo respect. Also not law. Ooo but my opinion is that you being this way makes you a bad mean person. Cool I guess. Not fact. And back to a past point, this has happened in the mcu since the early days to characters before Loki. It’s not a surprise. They werent, and aren’t, gonna give anyone a satisfying development or ending. A surprise was sherlock series 4 and the hate toward the fans from the writers who were mad that the fans hated it, who included digs at the fans and their theroies in the episodes because they hated them so much. Be mad susan. or just watch the lion king or read hamlet or google all the other past lokis that may have gotten full closure and picture them as tom hiddleston dressed up as Loki. Who again disagrees with your opinions. As does chris. And Ruffalo. I may also just block you if you reply without reading fyi because I’m done having fun with this. If you send hate I’ll make a new blog lol. I mostly lurk so whatever. The reblogs people have made of mine will still exist 🤷‍♀️. Have fun in the pissed off about an adaptation of hamlet fandom susan.

Omg wait I FORGOT. have you guys seen full metal panic? It was serious with some comedy, then had a comedy fluff season, then went back to serious with even less comedy. Stuff like that can happen you know. Thats just one example too. Or they could hybrid it to please both sides. Lots of people want more thor or a revengers series now. Ragnarok saved thor for most fans and it has a chance at getting more content now. Maybe they will surprise you since thor is so much more popular now. Maybe Ragnarok is a god send and you’re jumping the gun. I want a hybrid of thor 1 & 2 + Ragnarok personally. I think thatd fly with most people.

Wow! Congratulations! You are the first person I’m going to block in the fandom! And it’s not even about your absurd opinions. I don’t block people over it. It’s because the level of your disrespect and rudeness is intolerable. Even the trolls I encountered were more polite which is saying sth about you. I would never stoop to your level and send hate to anyone. This is going to be here for my followers because most of them share the same opinions as me and no one deserves to receive this kind of attitude.

The level of eloquence and depth of thought here is, er, astonishing.

“Let’s not ask for any kind of character coherence in popular art, because it’s just popular. It’s not Hamlet. Did I mention it’s not Hamlet? And you should have the exact same feelings about a fictional villain as about real-life serial killers because fiction is identical to reality. Except you shouldn’t care about fiction. Why am I on a fandom site again? Also I’m completely certain Tom Hiddleston is happy about things because I’m really good at interpreting people’s body language and facial expressions. Hamlet was also really happy about how his story ended.”

emo-loki replied to your post “foundlingmother
replied to your post “Still unfollowing people who…”

^^^For real though, I’m tired of seeing “Fanon Thor and Loki vs Canon Thor and Loki” posts that’s basically just “pre-Ragnarok Thor and Loki vs Ragnarok Thor and Loki”.

Gee, Ragnarok stans, why might the fandom be consistently characterizing Thor and Loki a certain way? Might it be because they were characterized that way FOR 3 OR 4 FUCKING MOVIES before Ragnarok completely rewrote them?

juliabohemian:

lokiloveforever:

That whole “you’ll always be the god of mischief but you could be more” speech that Thor gives Loki bugs me, because Loki is, and always has been, more than “just” the god of mischief. Who do the writers/director think they’re trying to convince of that? Us? This is something we already knew. Loki? Even Loki himself knows he is more than that, he’s spent all his life trying to prove it to Odin and Thor. And they shut him down at every pass. Oh, but those times were imagined slights.

THOR 1: “Hey Loki, you’re a piece of shit!”

AVENGERS: “Hey Loki, you’re a piece of shit!”

THOR 2: “Hey Loki, you’re a piece of shit!”

THOR 3: “You know what your problem is, Loki? You think you’re a piece of shit. But you could be more…”

It’s not noble to rescue someone from the peril you inflicted on them. Nor is it noble to disabuse someone of a notion that you yourself instilled. 

I went into Ragnarok thinking “this is it…this will be the movie where Thor finally acknowledges that Loki’s pain is real and tries to reach some kind of understanding with him.” But Thor doesn’t want to understand. He only wants to be understood. That was the case even before Ragnarok. But in Ragnarok it was so much worse. 

I really thought that Loki would find a way to let Thor know about what happened to him after he fell from the Bifrost. Which, to me, is an enormous plot hole. Thor seeing Loki show up on Earth after he’s presumed dead, and not feeling even slightly compelled to investigate is a giant plot hole. But they needed Loki to be a villain in that movie. So they just had him do villain-y things, because reasons.

Ragnarok tried to re-establish Loki as this hedonistic troublemaker who sits around, drinking his problems away. Which is amusing if you consider that Loki literally held Asgard together for several years while his brother, who had yet to actually spend any time ruling, ran around the cosmos doing who knows what. But we are to believe that Loki is this inept, immoral imp who cares about nothing and no one. When in actuality he is quite capable. The whole thing makes me ill. I look forward to the point when I stop caring about it tbh.

Really, it’s more “you are a piece of shit” again in TR rather than “you think you’re a piece of shit.” Or perhaps more precisely, “you rest content with being a piece of shit.”

There’s a peculiar kind of sadism in Ragnarok’s repeated insistence that being a trickster is just “in Loki’s nature,” that that’s who he fundamentally is (ignoring previous canon, of course), and then Thor*’s demand that Loki just stop being “the god of mischief” and become someone else. If that’s really his nature, it should be impossible, or else Thor* is ordering him not to be himself anymore… which is a horrible thing to demand of someone you supposedly love.

P.S. I can understand why Loki in “The Avengers” would feel like he needs to prevent Thor from finding out what happened, and I can also kind of understand Thor post-Avengers being too pissed to want to talk to Loki – though it’s far from admirable. But not asking Loki why he pretended to be dead, exiled Odin, and took the throne is an incredibly glaring omission in TR… though it makes sense from an external (or “Doylist”) standpoint if you regard it as part of the campaign to rewrite Loki as this capricious trickster. If that’s the case, Thor doesn’t even need to ask why; it’s for the same reason he does anything: because he’s a trickster and he just couldn’t help himself.

foundlingmother
replied to your post “Still unfollowing people who post/reblog ill-informed kneejerk Whedon…”

In response to my comment: “on later thought, it occurs to me that Waititi’s mental ableism is more likely meant to be hurtful than Whedon’s sexism.”

I suppose if we believe he thinks mentally ill people are whiny and need a serving of tough love. But I kind of think he just doesn’t see Loki as mentally ill. There are plenty of people on this site who believe Loki’s suicide attempt was just him escaping punishment, that everything he’s ever said that’s given him depth (just wanting to be Thor’s equal) was a lie, etc. That he’s just a selfish trickster. I might be being to generous, but I kind of thought TW was (½)

(2/2) too mentally healthy to recognize Loki’s mental health problems, and too focused on the class privilege of both Thor and Loki to recognize they can have legit struggles that others identify with. I know a lot of people in real life who really honestly believe that wealthy people don’t have the right to be upset about anything in their life.

I’m going to guess the main reason some people don’t believe Loki’s suicide attempt was real is because of the bit in Ragnarok where Loki is telling the story at the Sakaarian cocktail party and says “at that moment I let go” and everyone laughs. Because that only makes sense if it’s a “Look how clever I am, I escaped Thor and Odin’s efforts to hold me to account.” If those people had actually watched Thor 1, and seen the empty look on Loki’s tearful face – or heard Kenneth Branagh’s commentary, saying “This is the moment when the thin steel rod holding his mind together just snaps” – they would not be saying that.

People who take Ragnarok’s claims to supersede previous canon are fake fans. That’s right, I said it. I’m not saying people who came in late, or even people who saw Ragnarok first, are fake fans; I didn’t get into the MCU until after AOU came out in 2015 (although I *did* watch everything in the correct order; I wasn’t raised by wolves). But if you think what comes later is somehow more valid – or that one later movie that goes against 3 (for Loki) or 4 (for Thor) movies’ worth of previous narrative and character-building can erase all of them – that just makes no damn sense.(*) People who are fans of Thor and Loki as they appear in TR – or as I prefer to call them, Thor* and Loki* (I use that philosophical convention to indicate false identity because Shmor and Shmoki just sound silly) – are not fans of the same characters as those of us who love them because of their appearances in previous movies, and it is beyond absurd for these latecomers to say that the rest of us are mistaken about who Thor and Loki really are, or that the “correct” characterization was only reached in the 4th or 5th movie in which they appeared. People who think that they are the same characters are just confused (somewhat understandably, but still).

As for TW: the inability to recognize mental illness as mental illness when it should be really fucking obvious comes very close to malicious ableism. I wouldn’t be surprised if he were skeptical of the existence of mental illness, and he thinks the whole thing is just an excuse for rich white people to be weak and lazy. Of course, mental illness is at least as prevalent among poor people and/or people of color… but it can be more easily attributed to adverse circumstances. TW is probably one of those people (like the people you know) who thinks that treating “mental illness” in poor people is a bourgeois effort to privatize social problems and keep the proletariat sedated in order to stave off revolution. (Not that I think TW is really a Marxist… but you get the idea.)

I’ve said this before, but it is a really bizarre and very recent attitude that only poor, underprivileged people have real and interesting problems. This claim isn’t even borne out in people’s consumption behavior: everyone is still fascinated by the lives of the rich and famous. Poor people’s struggles to make ends meet are entirely too common, and the people who actually experience that seem to find it boring to watch… though the bleeding-hearted rich might be interested in it as a kind of pity porn. From Homer to Sophocles to Shakespeare to superhero comics to tabloids, people want to hear about the high political struggles, epic battles, and screwed-up love lives of gods, heroes, and kings. They want the larger than life, but they also want to perceive the common humanity that the great and mighty share with everyone else – and yes, that includes the Greek and Norse gods, who were deliberately, profoundly human. Novels and TV have brought the travails of the middle class and sometimes the poor into the orbit of popular literature, but it’s still more often people’s love lives than their struggles against oppression… and shows like The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, and Empire indicate that it’s still the present-day warrior classes, royalty, and aristocracy that fascinate. Social justice evangelists can insist that people shouldn’t care about these things, but they can’t truly claim that no one does care.

(*) A caveat: I do accept the recent X-Men movies’ cutting The Last Stand (2006) out of the canon because the general consensus is that it’s not up to the quality standard of its predecessors, and the writer, Simon Kinberg, has continued to write and produce the more recent movies. I’ll take a writer’s rejection of his own past work much more seriously than a new writer/director’s rejection of a bunch of other people’s work.

Oh look, I found another reason why I hate this movie:

mentallydatingahotcelebrity:

Literally everything Thor does in this movie is condescending and uncaring toward Loki. He’s not even remotely nice to him. His brother who said “Sometimes I’m envious of you, but never doubt my love” “I didn’t do it for him.” This entire movie was just a stage for Thor to be “awesome God of Thunder” and to put Loki in some sort of sideshow space. 

Exactly where he started in the first film.

He’s back to just having to go along with Thor regardless of how he feels about the matter “let’s do get help, you love it.” “I hate it, it’s embarrassing” “we’re doing it”

Loki literally tells Thor he finds that modus operandi degrading and Thor essentially replies “I don’t give a flying fuck what you think, we’re doing it because I want to, so deal.” and Loki, of course, does exactly that.

Because that’s how it’s been with Thor for all their adult lives.

“know your place, brother.”

“Enough.”

TR took Thor back to square one. He’s not the mature, thoughtful king-in-training he was in TDW (I will ALWAYS prefer that version of him; it was true to his character arc). He’s gone back to the selfish, arrogant “it’s all about me” outlook. He doesn’t care about Loki, doesn’t ask his opinion– unlike the carefully executed plan of TDW where Loki gets to use his skills equally alongside Thor’s brawn. 

But the one thing that really gets me about that comment above is this part: “while Loki thought it was an affectionate pat” 

What. The. Hell?!?!?! God forbid Loki actually receive some real, genuine affection from Thor because he’s just a trickster, so he doesn’t really matter. That was beaten in our faces OVER AND OVER AND OVER by Taika Waititi–

Loki is just a dumb trickster who has no motive and no life-plan.

Loki just wants to drink margaritas and watch bad theater about himself because he’s a glorified narcissist.

Loki just wants to fuck the Grandmaster (or at least the GM wants to fuck him).

Loki and all of his past issues were non-issues, so stop feeling sorry for him.

Oh, and my favorite, though I don’t think I can contribute this to TW, but rather whoever wrote the script:

“You’ll always be the God of Mischief, but you could be something more.”

We’re supposed to admire Thor’s cleverness and kingly wisdom in this scene, when actually all this is doing is subtly reinforcing the fact that Loki’s been treated as the punching bag, the jokes-on-legs, the “if we have no SMART ideas I’ll just throw my LITTLE brother at the bad guys”.

What. 

The. 

FUCK.

I think that might actually be from TW, since people who have read the novelization said the electrocution and lecture/ultimatum scene wasn’t in there. Taika wanted to put in a “trickster tricked” incident to show that Thor is now smarter than Loki and solely responsible for Loki’s “redemption”… never mind that the betrayal made no fucking sense given Loki’s character as established in previous films, and all it showed (like the rest of the improvised “humor”) is that Thor is self-important, self-absorbed, and cruel.

goingrampant:

philosopherking1887:

philosopherking1887:

foundlingmother replied to your post “Still unfollowing people who post/reblog ill-informed kneejerk Whedon…”

It reminds me how desensitized people are to ableism in films and every day life. Ragnarok has a lot of ableism. I don’t think it’s meant to be hurtful, but then neither is any sexism in the Avengers movies. It’s just two different filmmakers with two different failings in social justice/morality. But Whedon gets rampant hate, while TW gets called a literal god. Tumblr culture is fucking scary…

Let’s not forget the homophobia in Thor: Ragnarok that has somehow been converted, by some strange Tumblrian alchemy, to groundbreakingly wonderful LGBT representation.

Although actually, @foundlingmother, in this instance it wasn’t anything about sexism, it was some bullshit about how Taika’s characterization of Thor and Loki was more “accurate” to Norse mythology while Joss was importing Christianity and portraying them as Jesus and the Devil and I was like… I could write a lengthy post about how off-base that analysis is and also how beside the point that would be as an assessment of MCU films even if it were accurate, or I could just unfollow the reblogger and block the post.

I haven’t read a lot of Marvel comics, but the original silver age comics Thor 1 was based on definitely had Loki as a Satan stand-in, so it’s possible that any sort of reading of Avengers Loki as Satan is based on the comics being adapted, if only through continuity from Thor 1.

I think it’s more accurate as an analysis of Thor 1, considering the Fall narrative that’s going on… but in that case, Thor is definitely not Jesus, because he’s far from perfect. But that still wouldn’t serve the desired purpose, because Joss Whedon didn’t write Thor 1, and the point was to condemn him for putting everything in Christian terms, while claiming that Taika (no doubt thanks to his unspoiled indigenous heritage) is somehow in touch with the Norse pagan spirit. Never mind that the written sources of Norse myth that we have are post-Christian, or that the entirety of modern European literature intervened between those sources and the Marvel comics, and that in any case the MCU characters are not supposed to be identical either to the mythical figures or to any particular iteration of the comics.

*screams*

pedeka:

philosopherking1887:

philosopherking1887:

foundlingmother replied to your post “Still unfollowing people who post/reblog ill-informed kneejerk Whedon…”

It reminds me how desensitized people are to ableism in films and every day life. Ragnarok has a lot of ableism. I don’t think it’s meant to be hurtful, but then neither is any sexism in the Avengers movies. It’s just two different filmmakers with two different failings in social justice/morality. But Whedon gets rampant hate, while TW gets called a literal god. Tumblr culture is fucking scary…

Let’s not forget the homophobia in Thor: Ragnarok that has somehow been converted, by some strange Tumblrian alchemy, to groundbreakingly wonderful LGBT representation.

Although actually, @foundlingmother, in this instance it wasn’t anything about sexism, it was some bullshit about how Taika’s characterization of Thor and Loki was more “accurate” to Norse mythology while Joss was importing Christianity and portraying them as Jesus and the Devil and I was like… I could write a lengthy post about how off-base that analysis is and also how beside the point that would be as an assessment of MCU films even if it were accurate, or I could just unfollow the reblogger and block the post.

Whedon never tried to turn Loki into the Devil. He lucked into getting an actual British guy to play William the Bloody Awful in Avengers.

Ha! I could never get over how bad James Marsters’ accent was. I could sort of roll with it until he used a short ‘a’ in “can’t” or “bath” or “pass” and then I’d fall out of the pretense for a while.

philosopherking1887:

foundlingmother replied to your post “Still unfollowing people who post/reblog ill-informed kneejerk Whedon…”

It reminds me how desensitized people are to ableism in films and every day life. Ragnarok has a lot of ableism. I don’t think it’s meant to be hurtful, but then neither is any sexism in the Avengers movies. It’s just two different filmmakers with two different failings in social justice/morality. But Whedon gets rampant hate, while TW gets called a literal god. Tumblr culture is fucking scary…

Let’s not forget the homophobia in Thor: Ragnarok that has somehow been converted, by some strange Tumblrian alchemy, to groundbreakingly wonderful LGBT representation.

Although actually, @foundlingmother, in this instance it wasn’t anything about sexism, it was some bullshit about how Taika’s characterization of Thor and Loki was more “accurate” to Norse mythology while Joss was importing Christianity and portraying them as Jesus and the Devil and I was like… I could write a lengthy post about how off-base that analysis is and also how beside the point that would be as an assessment of MCU films even if it were accurate, or I could just unfollow the reblogger and block the post.