I saw this conversation going in my feed about straights hating Ragnarok!Loki and lgbtq+ loving Ragnarok!Loki but then my page froze and I had to refresh; when I did I lost the post, but I was going to reblog it and say this:
I’m bisexual and the reason I hate Loki in Ragnarok is because that’s not the way he acts. Simple as that. Loki’s not a day drinking slutty twink, I beg to differ. Somehow over the years the Loki fandom seems to think that Loki just sleeps with everyone all the time any time and they think it’s hilarious and have turned it from funny/amusing into a nightmare that makes me sick to look at anymore because of how dumb and unbelievable and out of character it is for Loki.
As @lusty-loki said, anyone can like Loki– But (my opinion now) you cannot just project onto him what you really want him to be, straight or otherwise. Same as I don’t project onto Loki being bi just because I am. That’s why I dislike him in Ragnarok, because TW seemed to have no care or respect into Loki’s character and he just turned him into a twit without a brain who relies on Thor to get them out of spots and who only tries to deceive his brother (because betray is a strong word… just because I don’t come through on a promise to my sibling doesn’t mean I betrayed them, I just cheat on them by lying).
Loki’s character literally turned to crap. And because Ragnarok was the last in 3 movies with Loki as one of the secondary characters, it’s awful. But if it had been the first one in 3 movies it would’ve been fine and I never would’ve watched another Thor movie again. I came to Marvel because of complex characters and plots– and Loki drew me because of his mental health issues; which I also suffer. So before you go around crowing from the rooftops that Ragnarok was wonderful JUST BECAUSE it brought the weird and skewed fancentric Loki to life, please compare the past Loki that we initially fell in love with to this Loki, and I assure that you will understand my problem with the movie and director Taika Waititi. (who I hate because of some of the really bizzare/appalling things he says about Thor and Loki and the actors and etc in the name of “just a joke”)
My rant is over.
Perfectly put. That is such sickening bullshit to say you must be straight if you hate Ragnarok Loki. For all the points you laid out here. My brother is gay, and I loath Loki’s portrayal in Ragnarok. It didn’t even cross my mind that Loki is meant to come across as either straight or gay in Ragnarok. All I saw was a horrible dumbing down of the character to the point that he didn’t resemble who had had been AT ALL. It’s so typical of people who can’t accept when other people don’t like what they do to try and slap some horseshit label on them or accuse them of being bigoted in some way. I don’t give a crap whether Loki is gay, straight, bi or whatever. His sexual orientation has nothing to do with who he is. It’s everything else about his character that initially attracted me and continues to, despite Marvel’s fantastic attempts to destroy it.
Lmao what bullshit. I’m DEFINITELY not straight and I hate Ragnarok too
A friend of mine saw that same post, and she had responded that she was straight and hated Thor Ragnarok, but for reasons other than that, and the response was this
And it went downhill from there
Then after all the back and forthing, she then recieved one anonymous hate mail after the other.
I think these particular people here, aren’t here because they love Ragnarok, or because they love Loki, or any other reason except they want to antagonize, attack, and spread their hate all around here. I’m straight and I hated Thor Ragnarok because of how idiotically dumbed down they made Loki. I hate it because of the total character assisination and tearing apart of his character. I hate it because they stripped him of all powers and dignity, and used him, literally USED him, as a comedy prop. And it doesn’t matter if Loki is gay, bi or straight. Just look at that phrase “day drinking slutty twink” and how degrading and demeaning that is. How UN Loki all of that is.
Thank you for this. Another reason why I really don’t like Ragnarok. Loki would of never slept his way to the top. Makes me wonder if these “fans” bothered with the other movies and know what his character is like. Loki brought me out of darkness and Ragnarok…it wasn’t the Loki that drew me to him. He was only in Ragnarok for the sake of being there. He was crapped on with every gag and had no real substance. The writing for him was just thrown together. I’ve been disappointed since then with Marvel and the directors.
@lokis-queen05 YES, EXACTLY! Honestly I don’t think they did, and if they did they all for some reason seem to think that the previous movies featuring Loki and Thor were “bad”– especially the first Thor movies. Which I can’t understand because they were very good. TDW was a bit rushed, perhaps, but can you blame them? That was a huge story that, if done well, (and I think they did VERY WELL, all things considering) probably could’ve taken at least 3 hours.
The writing for Loki was definitely thrown together; but that’s what’s to be expected from 3 scripts or whatever that they had, and then Taika Waititi throwing that out and saying “improvise, boys, while I play a rock giant and give myself more lines than Loki!!”
Just a huge nightmare.
@mentallydatingahotcelebrity I really do not like TW. And so many think he is such a great director and made a masterpiece with Ragnarok. It’s anything but. I loved the first two Thor movies. For me it was a build up and then a let down with Ragnarok. Loki’s character development didn’t matter to TW. He made him how he wanted Loki not how he really was in the two Thor movies and Avengers.
God, every time I watch Ragnarok it hurts; Every action Loki does, everything, it’s almost as if I can HEAR TW saying “Fuck all your hard work, Tom, it doesn’t mean a damn– you don’t mean a damn– this is MY movie now” and I just CRINGE, but then I get pissed.
lol, are these idiots serious? That’s the best they can come up with to counter the people who don’t like Ragnarok? To make fun of them for being straight? lol. Wow, okay.
But everyone here has made salient points. The reasons we all have for hating Ragnarok, and in particular hating the way Loki was treated as a character and Tom was treated as an actor, are all absolutely legitimate and well founded. Taika Waititi is so plain as day an egotistical dick face who’s in love with himself and his own stupidity, and it’s clearly attracted a bunch of brainless twits to this franchise. Like’s already been pointed out, they don’t actually give a damn about Thor, or Loki, or the franchise. It’s just a platform for them to spread their own stupid shit and worship at the alter of their twit hero TW. Anytime someone uses derogatory language or remarks to describe someone or something they supposedly “like”, in this case Loki, I know they’re full of shit. You don’t call someone or something you like disgusting, degrading names. You don’t talk about them like they’re a joke, or someone to be made fun of. These people are just a bunch of hateful bitches who get off on their own, warped perceptions of how cool they think they are. But the reality is, deep down, they probably hate themselves, which is why they go around shitting on everyone else. It’s pathetic.
I think it’s of a piece with the people who say you must be a racist who doesn’t understand the spirit of the Maori people if you didn’t like “Ragnarok.” The only way people around here know how to argue is by trying to score oppression/social justice points. God forbid you should actually try to talk about the content of the films and the psychology of the characters.
There’s nothing wrong with day-drinking slutty twinks, as characters or as people, and I wouldn’t necessarily mind if Loki were one, but the problem is that “Ragnarok” reduced him to that. It stripped him of his intelligence, his complexity of motivation, his history of suffering and mental illness. And to the people saying that we fans of pre-Ragnarok Loki don’t want to see him get better or be happy: we do, but we need to see him actually work through his problems to get there. Mental illness isn’t cured magically, nor can it, in real life, simply be retconned away. And TW certainly doesn’t earn any “social justice” points by making Loki’s suicide attempt into a joke.
P.S. I’m bi and I know people who are neither straight nor cis who hated “Ragnarok” and its characterization of both Thor and Loki.
If they wanted to tell a story about how Odin abused one of his children for imperialist purposes, why didn’t they just use the character who fit that description who already existed instead of inventing a new one out of whole cloth?
Because it would have taken the spotlight of their precious Saakar and their toilet humor. If Loki would have being the antagonist, the movie would have being driven to Tom no matter what, becasue he is… A better actor than Chris. Period. Just like RDJ is better actor than Evans and CW was more driven by his performance. He couldn’t have Loki taking the spotlight and actually delivering something close to deep, even as an antagonist.
Instead of that TW brought one of the best actress of her generation, made hype around her because she was strange to Marvel and would create more fans… And put her in a role so empty that it makes me angry in her behalf as an actress myself.
Ragnarok could of been so much better but they got writers and a director who wanted to push Loki/Tom aside. One thing that still has me upset are some of the pictures of the cast. It’s all of them except Tom. Makes me wonder if he really was happy with that movie. Since TDW when they brought Loki back from the dead, Marvel has been wanting him out. It’s evident with IW. Taika Waititi has such a love for Chris, that it I could see that Loki’s sl was never going to play out like it should of. Its bad when Marvel won’t get directors and writers that actually do care for a character and just favor some characters over others. No way are they ever going to bring Loki to the front of the main characters. Even if he is loved more and has more fans.
^This! I noticed, too, that Tom is noticeably absent from a lot of Ragnarok bts media. But they sure paraded him around exhaustively during IW press(not that I’ll complain about the opportunity to see him as often as possible). Almost like they knew if we knew ahead of time that his role was only a few minutes long, we wouldn’t care about IW as much. This is just MY opinion, of course.
tony: i dont go down on women but i expect them to suck my dick and thats how KINGS live
thor a feminist:
this is fake news don’t EVER disrespect pepper like this
Didn’t he, like, canonically get pegged by gamora too lmaooooooo
Yes
Wait this was pegging? I HAD NO IDEA LIKE I WAS SO INTO THIS TONY GAMORA PANEL ALREADY AND NOW IT IS LIKE 5000000000000000 TIMES BETTER. AJSKALAKKAKAA.
I saw this and went: “Hang on now… I remember reading that. I did NOT think they were pegging.” Then I dug it out and had a closer look:
Panel two, bottom left corner — that is definitely a strap-on harness. This whole thing makes so much more sense now. I cannot believe I didn’t see that before.
Damn Gamora. Fierce.
Wait! Didn’t rdj also call tony a feminist in his interview!!!
Didn’t he also open a shelter and organization for women who needed help and let women run it because he knew as a man he (and other men) would never truly understand or help the right way? And we are talking about the same man who gave Pepper CEO of his multimillion dollar company?
Didn’t he like, okay trigger warning but didn’t he also take a teenage rape victim turned prostitute off the streets directly to the women shelter? Like…can we stop pretending that casual sex = misogynist when tony stark in canon has so explicitly addressed women’s issues? Has so explicitly supported women? Where’s that goddamn panel of tony giving vision dating advice about treating women like the whole entire individual they are and not like an enigma they talk about in dating magazines because that shit is relevant
I was just gonna ignore this post but it keeps coming up so let me add these:
And that was all before he quitted being a playboy, even as he lived his playboy life you never see him disrespect women and quite the opposite to what op is implying, he plays the role that serves and submits to his partner, and do I need to add how he is with pepper who he’s in a committed relationship with for more or less 8 years now:
Like I don’t care if that’s just a meme or joke but if you have to make it, make it accurate?? Praise Thor all you like, I stan him too, but trying to paint tony as a misogynist who disrespect women, I’ve got news for you.
y’all already handled the good fact-based commentary so I’m just going to chime in to express my shock that anyone has ever looked at Tony Stark and seen anything but a sub
Also, if your main evidence that MCU Thor is a feminist is that ridiculous blathering at Valkyrie in Ragnarok, I call bullshit. I’m not saying he’s not a feminist, or that there isn’t evidence in previous movies, but I’ve only been seeing all this “feminist Thor” stuff since Ragnarok, which makes me think people are just taking at face value some claims that are extremely suspect.
The lowering of the gaze – the difference between the two.
This whole comparison reads like a John Mulaney joke.
“So I could never understand how someone would want to take over a planet. Like how could someone just go to someone else’s planet and try to rule it. And then I met his dad and I was like, “Oh, okay. I’m not going to do it, but I totally get it now.”
The one thing good that came out of Loki discovering the truth about being Jotunn? No more lowering his gaze when Odin speaks. It still hurts, but Odin saying that validates every thought Loki’s had about how Odin screwed him over. Compare “Your birthright was to die!” to “You were both born to be kings.” Daddy dearest lost all authority over Loki.
The same thing happens to Thor after Ragnarok. Hela and Odin’s past reveal that there’s no worthiness to be gained in respecting Odin’s authority or leadership example. Thor’s free to be a good man and a king. Those no longer need be necessarily at odds to facilitate idolizing his father.
You’re right about Loki in TDW. I wish you were right about Thor in Ragnarok, but the movie isn’t that deep or even self-consistent: Odin still appears to Thor in a vision to offer him wisdom and Thor says that he’s not as strong as Odin was. I think Ragnarok was just ignoring that “good man vs. great king” line the way it ignored most of the rest of the previous films.
Someone: In Thor: Ragnarok, for the first time we see Loki acting mischievous and hedonistic, but ultimately heroic! We see Loki acting like actual canon Loki! But you guys only like him when he’s talking about subjugating the Earth, spewing the typical mustache-twirling, one-dimensional villain lines.
Me: What Thor did you watch where Loki’s a one-dimensional villain? What Avengers did you watch where Loki’s a mustache-twirling villain? WHAT THOR: THE DARK WORLD DID YOU WATCH WHERE LOKI’S A FUCKING VILLAIN?!
Also, like… what “actual canon”? The comics? Which comics: classic comics or recent ones (i.e., Agent of Asgard and later)? The MCU characters are not exactly the same as the comics characters – which would actually be impossible, because they’ve been reinvented so many times in the comics; the MCU has to pick one characterization and stick with it. Loki’s characterization in Thor 1 was, I think, modeled on Loki in the “Blood Brothers” and “The Trials of Loki” miniseries, where he’s portrayed as a tragic anti-villain.
But I get the sense that in the recent comics, Loki still has more psychological depth and angst that the writers take seriously than Loki in Thor: Ragnarok, since he’s struggling with his evil past incarnations. And that the comics don’t mock his mental health problems. (I don’t know much, since all I’ve seen is panels people post on here… I’m still struggling to work my way up to his reincarnation as Kid Loki, but the older comics are slow going.)
Not sure if you saw this epically ridiculous thread… but I spend some time at the bottom explaining why Loki in Thor 1 was an “interesting, conflicted trickster” and not the “bland pretentious baddie” that the TR/Waititi/Thor* stans seem to think he was. Istg, they didn’t even watch the previous movies… or whenever they watch a movie it gets turned into a simplistic cartoon version.
pet peeve – when people call loki’s speech in iw character development
1. it’s not development when it comes out of nowhere
2. it’s not development if it was all resolved in the previous movies
i just hate how loki was used in the past two movies. they just needed him to get from point a. to point b. no explanations for his actions. i think this is what i personally dislike most about both ragnarok and infinity war. yeah there are important changes but i don’t feel them. i used to -get- loki. i don’t anymore. idk maybe it’s just me.
Oh gosh! Yes!
The part that sticks out the most is the way Ragnarok and IW handled Loki being a Frost Giant (I’m sure we’re on exactly the same wavelength in thinking that). Ragnarok shows Loki revealing he’s a Frost Giant to Asgard, and never explores why he did this or the reaction of the people (perhaps because it doesn’t understand or care about how the previous movies would suggest their reaction would be negative).
The why part’s interesting to explore. Some people, myself included, have speculated Loki did a lot of self-healing in the four years he posed as Odin. There are ways that Loki could have been written where it would make sense that he reveals himself (I’m exploring one way in Debts). However, the purpose of the play isn’t to assure us that Loki’s been caring for himself and coming to terms with what he is. It’s to summarize the important points from the previous films in a “respectfully disrespectful” (I believe those were TW’s words) manner, and to show off how silly Loki is for writing a bad play about himself.
And then in IW he claims he’s the rightful king of Jotunheim. What?! The last mention of your feels were in a single line to Thor about how much being lied to hurts. Was I supposed to take from that and the weird play that everything was cool now? That the major fucking catalyst for Loki’s emotional breakdown in Thor was resolved by four years of relaxation and Thor (Loki’s brother who used to talk about how he was going to slay every fucking Frost Giant) ignoring Loki’s mention of it? I refuse!
And on the fandom side of things… the people who say Loki finally proved he loved Thor and was willing to die for him in IW drive me up a wall! First, did you not watch TDW? Even if you’re assuming Loki was only pretending (which doesn’t make sense but whatever) or planned to pretend to die, he couldn’t have predicted the black hole grenade that nearly took him out. He wasn’t protecting Jane for her sake. Second, Loki doesn’t die for Thor in IW. I’m sorry, but that’s the truth. Loki’s actions don’t prevent Thanos from killing Thor. He could have easily done so after finishing off Loki. Loki’s death in IW is meaningless. It’s just there to say “see how easily our new bad guy takes out the old one”.
pet peeve – when people call loki’s speech in iw character development
1. it’s not development when it comes out of nowhere
2. it’s not development if it was all resolved in the previous movies
i just hate how loki was used in the past two movies. they just needed him to get from point a. to point b. no explanations for his actions. i think this is what i personally dislike most about both ragnarok and infinity war. yeah there are important changes but i don’t feel them. i used to -get- loki. i don’t anymore. idk maybe it’s just me.
It’s not just you. And the reason you don’t get him anymore is because there’s nothing to get. He no longer resembles a person with a complex, comprehensible psychology. He’s a cardboard cutout of a (“reformed”) trickster.
I’ll admit right up front that I’m particularly sensitive to the argument that, if you’re able to function, your pain mustn’t really be that bad. I have had fibromyalgia since I was 8, and I was diagnosed with lupus just two weeks ago (fucking yay!). I’m in pain 24/7. My immune system attacks healthy tissue in my body. It’s fucking painful. And yet, I still function. Many people have doubted how much pain I’m in because of the myth that you can’t function when you’re in pain.
Today there was a lot of meta focused on asgardians and pain. The meta addressed people who call Thor’s use of the obedience disk on Loki torture. As goes the response to any argument that’s too pro-Loki, things quickly escalated to “he’s just mildly irritated by the obedience disk” and “Loki hasn’t experienced actual physical pain in the MCU except for maybe when he nearly died in TDW.”
*sigh*
I often state that asgardians can handle pain. That’s something I believe in. I think they respond differently to painful circumstances that would kill or severely disable a human. That’s based on evidence from the movies. Fandral’s impaled in Thor, and survives. Thor’s obviously been stabbed by Loki multiple times, and he’s fine. Both Thor and Loki have been smashed by Hulk, and both have had the obedience disk used on them, and they’re both still alive. Loki’s been in Thanos’ clutches, and he’s seemingly made a full physical recovery from that (despite looking incredibly fucked up and tripping all over himself in Avengers). For that reason, I tend to be more accepting of how physical characters get with asgardians. I forgive Loki stabbing Thor. I forgive Thor grabbing Loki by the neck and throwing him to the ground when they’re reunited in Avengers. My assumption is that asgardian culture is more permissive of acts we’d recognize as excessively violent (let’s not get into whether those acts are justified–that’s not the point) by virtue of asgardians being able to survive more.
What I mean when I say asgardians can handle pain is that they are durable. They are like Deadpool or Wolverine. Both can survive very painful, violent acts. That isn’t the same as not feeling pain.
Volstagg, when touched by a frost giant, shouts in pain. He quickly recovers from a severe case of frostbite, and is able to continue functioning, but he clearly feels the pain.
Loki is terrified of Hulk. If he doesn’t feel the pain of being smashed by Hulk, then why is he so scared of him?
Thor passes out each time the obedience disk is used on him. Loki can’t even fucking move when it’s used on him. My assumption was that Thor passes out from pain, and Loki’s in so much pain that he’s unable to function while that pain is sustained. That’s something the script states, really. It says he’s writhing in pain.
So yes, the obedience disk is a torture device. It superheats veins. I forgive Thor using it on Loki to disable him–he needs to stop Loki from betraying him. I still think Loki feels intense, sustained pain. I don’t agree that it’s just a mildly irritating device. I think Loki’s felt pain in numerous instances. Sometimes the characters inflicting that pain are justified, and sometimes they’re not. Hulk was justified. Thor was justified (for at least as long as he needed to disable Loki, and I happen to think the fact that he just leaves him disabled is ooc). Thanos wasn’t justified. Kurse wasn’t justified.
I’m kind of sick of fans not being allowed to feel uncomfortable with that scene. If people are uncomfortable watching Thor gloat over his brother’s twitching body, that seems reasonable. It bothers me that Thor uses it on Loki for the amount of time that he does (so much that I call it ooc because I don’t think Thor would torture Loki, or leave him to potentially die). It bothers me that it gets used on Thor, too.
I can’t even watch the scenes where the obedience disk gets used on Thor or Loki. I close my eyes. Watching them in pain reminds me of my own. I feel my own more keenly when I watch those scenes. I also feel very, very squeamish seeing the veins under their skin.
TL;DR: Asgardians are durable, but they still experience pain. People are entirely justified in being uncomfortable with the obedience disk. It’s very easy to interpret that device as a torture device. Please stop rolling your eyes when someone finds it uncomfortable to watch their favorite character(s) twitch in pain. Consider that your interpretation of a piece of media may not be the only “right” or even reasonable one.
The discourse. It’s back.
In all honesty, it’s wonderful, imo, if you don’t see it as torture. I’m very happy for you. Just try to empathize with why I am uncomfortable with it, and why I do see the obedience disk as a torture device.
OK, that’s where we differ. Whether or not people want to call it “torture” or “abuse” or anything in particular, I’m a little uncomfortable with people who aren’t uncomfortable with that scene. Even before I realized all of the problems with Ragnarok and its characterization of Thor, I was uncomfortable with that scene and with how smug and self-satisfied Thor looked seeing Loki’s obvious pain. It was the most obvious expression of the cruelty and lack of consideration for others that he shows throughout the movie, usually in more subtle ways.
Bless your sweet heart @mentallydatingahotcelebrity – Bless your posts! I feel exactly the same! I agree with you about Hela being Loki 2.0 – she’s not an original character. She had no business being in their family like that. All they did was give her Loki’s backstory. They took that away from him too. As if to say, “Loki’s nothing special, his pain doesn’t mean shit – look at Hela”. Same beef with Odin, same unfavorited child, same disappointment locked away for eternity. That’s not original! THAT’S LOKI!!
They even gave her his lines,(“kneel”) and his colours – Waititi said Loki couldn’t wear his colours in this because “there was already enough green in the movie” – that makes as much sense as saying “Sif couldn’t be in the movie because there were already enough female badasses”. It’s bullshit, they stripped Loki of everything, everything that makes Loki Loki. They brough on a third sibling who had no business being there. They wedged Hela between Loki and Thor. Anything and everything to take the attention off of Loki. Recycled his story and gave it to Hela. Then they kept repeating “Loki has become predictable” like it was their mantra. Of course he was predictable – they didn’t let him have anything else!!
Ragnarok was Taika Waititi’s vessel to parade around a big F U to Loki and his fans. He insinuated the worst about him, turned him into a court jester, he tore him to pieces, mocked and ridiculed him, and left him like a shell. That’s part of the reason we got what we got in Infinity War.
I don’t mean to be disrespectful to those who love this movie, but I am tired of being dumped on about this. Nobody’s going to think twice about offending those who are seriously hurting from this movie, but yet we are expected to tiptoe around those who are eating it up. If what you wanted was a weak, powerless, lazy, “twink” of a Loki, then congradulations. But for those of us who didn’t, let us hurt, let us grieve, let us rant, and please just let us be.
Omg, exactly!
I’ve hated so deeply this way to strip off from Loki anything that was his own. His powers, his sassiness, his mood, his colors (what kind of sloppy excuse is “There’s so much green in the movie”?? I’m so baffled every single time TW open his mouth…).
They give us a character who’s not our Loki. The Loki we know. The Loki we love. Thor Ragnarok forced in our throats this poor parody of Loki, with no progression…just a silly knife-thrower. For not to mention how sad would it be for Tom let be pushed back in order to make room to all the silliness.
Bring back our Loki. The God. The Trickster. The Smart one. The Brilliant. The Green and Gold God.
The God of Mischief.
Thank you! I thought it was just me. Must as I loved Thor 3 as a film, I hated the way it pretty much emasculated Loki. I feel that was deliberate, to pave the way for Infinity War (& subsequent plot device). Loki (& his fans) deserved better.
Thank you for putting my thoughts so succinctly @thranduilista
Loki stabbing Thor and Thor using the obedience disc on Loki is like…..the equivalent of pulling each other’s hair. They’re not hurt that easily, and especially for the latter, it’s been well established that Thor would never ever actually seriously hurt him. He did it to immobilize him temporarily so that he didn’t fuck up Thor’s plan to, you know, save Asgard.
This discussion has also been had ad nauseam. Have you seen the Ragnarok shooting script? If not, it’s here. The script describes Loki as “WRITHING in pain” and “convulsing in agony.” So even if the disk can’t do too much damage to him, it is still causing considerable pain. That is even the goal of much torture these days: to cause unbearable pain without causing lasting damage.
The one thing I would add is that it has been well established that Thor would never seriously hurt Loki. Thor’s characterization in Ragnarok is so radically different from his characterization in previous movies that I don’t even consider him the same person; accordingly, I’ve started calling him Thor* (following a notational convention in academic philosophy). From the fact that Thor* left Loki defenseless on a planet full of people who would melt him without a second thought, I cannot conclude that Thor* would never seriously hurt him.
Loki is the Philosopher King 