philosopherking1887:

foundlingmother:

philosopherking1887:

toomanylokifeels:

I wonder if Loki thought about when he was falling through the abyss when Strange left him falling for thirty minutes

HOLY SHIT ME TOO

I was definitely bothered that they were being so cavalier about something that’s plausibly a PTSD trigger for him. But I guess he’s over it now, right? Because he was telling that clearly *hilarious* story to his new friends on Sakaar that ended with “and then I let go.”

HOLY SHIT?!

I did not even catch what story he was telling on Sakaar? He was telling them about his suicide attempt? What the fuck?!

From the shooting script (available here, among other places): “There was a wormhole in space and time beneath me. At that moment, I let go.”

New headcanon: Loki is telling the people of Sakaar about something that isn’t his fucking suicide attempt. Let’s say he’s telling them about some adventure he, Thor, Sif, and the Warriors Three had where Loki had to save everyone (perhaps he’s exaggerating, perhaps not). Yeah, that sounds good to me.

The best I can make of it is what you and some others have done with the horrible play: call it a really weird coping strategy.

philosopherking1887:

toomanylokifeels:

I wonder if Loki thought about when he was falling through the abyss when Strange left him falling for thirty minutes

HOLY SHIT ME TOO

I was definitely bothered that they were being so cavalier about something that’s plausibly a PTSD trigger for him. But I guess he’s over it now, right? Because he was telling that clearly *hilarious* story to his new friends on Sakaar that ended with “and then I let go.”

HOLY SHIT?!

I did not even catch what story he was telling on Sakaar? He was telling them about his suicide attempt? What the fuck?!

From the shooting script (available here, among other places): “There was a wormhole in space and time beneath me. At that moment, I let go.”

toomanylokifeels:

I wonder if Loki thought about when he was falling through the abyss when Strange left him falling for thirty minutes

HOLY SHIT ME TOO

I was definitely bothered that they were being so cavalier about something that’s plausibly a PTSD trigger for him. But I guess he’s over it now, right? Because he was telling that clearly *hilarious* story to his new friends on Sakaar that ended with “and then I let go.”

I attribute the sparcity of Ragnarok criticism to tumblr’s obsession with identity politics. You simply cannot criticize a film directed by POC, staring 2 POCs in main roles, with female final boss and implications of queerness of 2-3 characters without overzealous teens too young to have seen Thor and Avengers back when they premiered yelling accusations of racism, sexism and homophobia (and fetishization of abusive relationships if you ship Loki with anyone).

philosopherking1887:

I agree that that’s probably a large part of it, especially in light of my experience of being called a racist for my criticisms of Ragnarok.

I think now is a good time to trot out a term I’ve been using in private to describe this aversion to criticizing any work of art made by a POC: benevolent racism. I coined it (or maybe reinvented it) modeled on the existing term benevolent sexism, which refers to the attitude that women are delicate and fragile and morally pure and must be protected. Benevolent sexism is what leads some academic advisors to go easy on female students and not push them to improve their work as much as they could, because they think they’re too fragile and can’t handle tough criticism (and maybe aren’t capable of getting their work as good as a man’s). Similarly, benevolent racism treats creators of color as something less than full agents who can take responsibility for their work and its flaws. (There’s a start to answering your question, @touterd, though there’s a lot more where that came from…)

I have stuff to say about the “fetishizing abuse” thing, but I have somewhere I need to be… I’ll get back to it later.

Hey, I’m back. As @fuckyeahrichardiii remarked on this post and I addressed here, I don’t think Ragnarok deserves a lot of credit for its portrayal of queer characters; it’s either swept under the rug, as you remarked in your reply, or it’s stereotypical “villainous queer-coding” and “dead lesbian” angst (fyriii’s words) + an exploitative relationship as the only overt representation of queerness.

Regarding the major POC characters, I have also made clear (maybe in other places) that in spite of my objections to Ragnarok’s treatment of the pre-existing heroes of the franchise (including the W3, who were unceremoniously slaughtered and never mentioned again), I really liked the roles played by Valkyrie and Heimdall. They are both badass and awesome (and hot), and I really do appreciate how Valkyrie is permitted to take on characteristics of male archetypes and hasn’t been slotted in as an unnecessary romantic subplot.

However, for those taken in by Tumblr identity politics, that will not matter because I am daring to pass overall negative judgment – however incomplete and qualified – on the first Marvel movie to be directed by someone other than a white man. They will also find it offensive that I am passing such judgment primarily based on what I see as the injustice to two white male characters: Thor and Loki. Well, here I stand. Thor and Loki are the reason we, the pre-Ragnarok fans of the Thor franchise, are invested in the films, and a great new character and good treatment of one secondary character aren’t enough to make up for the failure with the two central characters.

I had mixed feelings about Hela as the “female final boss” (LOL). To some extent her story was interesting: her feeling of betrayal at being being imprisoned by her own father and former accomplice, her sense of grievance at being denied her birthright (there’s a theme we’ve seen before!), and her exposure of Asgard’s shameful imperialist history – all that was very cool. On the other hand, some of her motivations were pretty hazy. Why does she want to conquer shit? I sort of got the sense that she just enjoys bloodshed… and maybe that makes sense for the Goddess of Death, but it’s a little unsatisfying to have the first female major villain be your standard “I want to take over the world!!” kind of cartoonish villain.

Hoo boy, I haven’t seen much of that thing about shipping Loki with anyone being abusive (though I have seen people saying that shipping him with a woman is problematic because he’s a misogynist, which I kind of see but think is debatable), but I know what you’re talking about. Yeah, Loki is pretty screwed up, but I think he’s been presented as redeemable, and it’s unfair to say that such people should be excluded from relationships. I also think people are capable of distinguishing fictional relationships they find narratively interesting or even just sexy from good models for real-life relationships (see this post, which I came across earlier today). I have no illusions about Thor/Loki being a healthy or pure relationship as the characters are presented in canon (though I also think that with a lot of work and maybe some therapy they could figure it out). Honestly, though, I’m not sure what to say to the charge of fetishization aimed at people who find abusive and/or power-imbalanced relationships interesting to write and read about because of the complicated interpersonal dynamics they present, or who find such relationships sexy to fantasize about. It’s a kink, it’s not everyone’s kink, and that’s fine; and I don’t think that kinks, if acknowledged as such and appropriately hedged about with warning tags and explicit consent, perpetuate abusive power relations in real life.

fuckyeahrichardiii
replied to your post “I attribute the sparcity of Ragnarok criticism to tumblr’s obsession…”

I also have no idea why the movie hasn’t been savaged by tumblr for its frankly awful queer-baiting. We’ve got a regressive case of textbook villainous queer-“coding” (though it’s barely even coded) with the GM, who despite everyone’s obsession with JG, is a really vile person (imperialist, slaver), and the FIRST almost open depiction of same-sex relations in the MCU (Loki/GM) is characterized by suggestions of frankly horrific power dynamics. Like, really Taika?

(2) And Valkyrie being bi was barely a whisper in the movie compared to the joke that was the GM’s sexuality. Even so, Taika had the tired trope of the dead lesbian in operation as part of Val’s backstory which honestly gets him 0 credit as far as I’m concerned.

But god forbid anybody critique the movie on these grounds because OMG JEFF GOLDBLUM SQUEE + benevolent racism (a great term!).

@fuckyeahrichardiii, you are entirely correct about the stereotypical villainous queer-coding – involving Loki, inasmuch as he is a sometime villain, as well as the Grandmaster. I will admit to being amused by Jeff Goldblum’s schtick – especially the use of “Pure Imagination” from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory – but now that you point it out, I should be suspicious of the characterization. And you’re also right that it’s a serious problem that the only semi-canonical queer relationship in the MCU is basically a sugar daddy/ sugar baby situation, where the “sugar” is not so much money or luxury (though that is involved) as survival, i.e., exemption from being forced into gladiatorial contests or melted.

I’ve been having some fun with Frostmaster as kind of a crack ship, because the Thorki fandom’s obsession with the Burgundy Jacket of Sin from AOU revealed to me my susceptibility to daddy kink. And I absolutely do have a thing for relationships with fucked-up power dynamics – IN FICTION, not in real life. I think it’s hot to read/fantasize about, but NOT a good model for real-life relationships. I kind of don’t get people who seem to ship Loki with the Grandmaster seriously and think they would be happy together. Loki is clearly not satisfied with the situation, as indicated by his suggestion that an “accident” might befall the Grandmaster and he and Thor could take over. I think he’s lying back and thinking of England, so to speak.

Holy shit, I did not even catch the dead lesbian thing. You are so right.

I attribute the sparcity of Ragnarok criticism to tumblr’s obsession with identity politics. You simply cannot criticize a film directed by POC, staring 2 POCs in main roles, with female final boss and implications of queerness of 2-3 characters without overzealous teens too young to have seen Thor and Avengers back when they premiered yelling accusations of racism, sexism and homophobia (and fetishization of abusive relationships if you ship Loki with anyone).

I agree that that’s probably a large part of it, especially in light of my experience of being called a racist for my criticisms of Ragnarok.

I think now is a good time to trot out a term I’ve been using in private to describe this aversion to criticizing any work of art made by a POC: benevolent racism. I coined it (or maybe reinvented it) modeled on the existing term benevolent sexism, which refers to the attitude that women are delicate and fragile and morally pure and must be protected. Benevolent sexism is what leads some academic advisors to go easy on female students and not push them to improve their work as much as they could, because they think they’re too fragile and can’t handle tough criticism (and maybe aren’t capable of getting their work as good as a man’s). Similarly, benevolent racism treats creators of color as something less than full agents who can take responsibility for their work and its flaws. (There’s a start to answering your question, @touterd, though there’s a lot more where that came from…)

I have stuff to say about the “fetishizing abuse” thing, but I have somewhere I need to be… I’ll get back to it later.

I think it’s time for a chat, fandom.

fraifraii:

lunariagold:

darklittlestories:

raven-brings-light:

philosopherking1887:

I have made it no secret that I am greatly dissatisfied with many aspects of Thor: Ragnarok, most especially the characterizations of Thor and Loki and the discontinuity with their characterization in earlier movies. Among more extreme Loki fans, including those who (reportedly) used to call themselves “Loki’s Resistance” and are widely known as “Loki-apologists” (I prefer “unconditional Loki-justifiers,” for reasons of precision), people have no trouble saying that they disliked the movie because of the way it thinned out Loki’s character. Loki fans who are in networks with the Loki-justifiers but do not hate Thor (as so many of the justifiers do) also have no trouble pointing out that Ragnarok messed up Thor’s character, virtually disregarding the process of maturation he had gone through in previous MCU movies.

However, it seems that more moderate Loki fans (who do acknowledge his flaws and misdeeds), including but not limited to Thor/Loki shippers, have been feeling pressured into silence about their dissatisfaction with the movie. Four such people have communicated with me about it under their own names, two relatively openly in replies to my posts, two in private messages; a few more have expressed similar sentiments in anonymous asks. I’m kind of concerned that smart, thoughtful people feel like they can’t express their views for fear of being shunned or bombarded with hate. (About a movie, FFS; this isn’t a matter of life and death!)

Maybe this is just a function of the overall climate of Tumblr, which a friend of mine has characterized as just a bunch of young people all agreeing with each other (in my more bitter moments, I’ve used the terms “groupthink” and “circle-jerk”). It seems that around here group identities revolve around people all sharing the same views. Arguments (or firefights, really) can only be had on a hostile footing across group lines; there’s not much of a chance for productive or friendly disagreement within a community. As a philosopher (and a Jew), this strikes me as extremely bizarre and more than a little creepy. I disagree with other philosophers about a lot of things, and we argue, and raise objections to each other’s papers, but we’re still friends, still enjoy many of the same things, still share (largely) the same basic values. There are subcommunities, to be sure, of those who agree about certain issues, but we are still a community, engaged in a common enterprise, in spite of (indeed, driven by!) our disagreements.

What can we do to make the fandom such that people feel comfortable expressing their actual views even if they disagree with the majority of the community, or just (as it may be) with the loudest voices? If the fandom is already open to such disagreement, how can we reassure people that they won’t be ostracized for holding minority/unpopular views?

I hope that some people with more standing in the fandom than I have will take an active part in opening it up to productive disagreement. All these “I thought it was just me” and “everyone’s been telling me I’m crazy” and “I was so relieved to see your post” and “I feel like I should just stfu if my interpretation is different from the main one” messages are making me kind of alarmed and kind of sad.

Signal boosting and adding –

I didn’t even know this was a problem until recently, and the fact that people are actually nervous to share their opinions about a movie is worrisome.

I too have some issues with Ragnarok, but I also have various issues with all the movies, and I don’t think I’ve ever been shy about expressing them…if I ever don’t bring them up, it’s just because I prefer talking about the things that I DO like. I do realize I have a pretty thick skin, though.

Anyway, I for one welcome all opinions both positive and negative about Ragnarok, and I enjoy discussions among people with different viewpoints. How better to think about issues from different angles, or have the chance to further explore why you feel a certain way, or even maybe come to change your mind about things? I’ve done all of those in the past. I sincerely hope that we as a fandom are mature enough not to flame each other over differences of opinion.

Please no one ever feel the need to keep quiet on my account! And I hope that maybe people will start to get more comfortable with expressing non-majority opinions.

PREACH!

Though I adored Ragnarok—probably because I was prepared for mindless fun and I got even more fun than I’d expected (and I didn’t find it very mindless)—I can’t stand fandom wank. It’s fascinating as hell to chat about our differences of experience and analysis of the films.

But yeah, I agree it is very jarring to have three distinct moods for the films that should have continuity but instead we have three sets of writers/directors who have vastly different takes and HUGE resulting mood whiplash. I get that very much.

Yeah I basically made a conscious decision to just enjoy Ragnarok for what it was- and be glad that Thor/Loki were together… and also Grandgoldblum- and not get all deep into criticism. I didn’t like everything; for instance Thor left me completely cold and I get how the mood is so different than previous films it can be jarring. In general, I share deeper meta opinions with closest friends because they know where I’m at already and it’s easier to break it down with them than with a bunch of people over the void.

I can get very annoyed and passionate over some things I don’t like, but I do not take it out on other people. I would walk away and take a breather if it would get up my crack this badly. Everybody has a right to enjoy what they do, or not enjoy it; it’s that simple. Be like Siskel and Ebert: You can argue opposite views until blue in the face but it’s not personal; you can still be respectful.

Thank you for paving the way of open discussion…I wrote a first reactions post, because I felt so strongly about it. But I deleted it because I edited it so many times, that it lost its point.Mainly because 98% of people not only loved it but adored it. I liked maybe 10% of it, so didn’t want to crash the party. Because I basically strongly felt the opposite. :”D

The main reason for me was Thor, as a main character, had no continuity to the other Thor’s. He became a frat boy. He lost all his previously built depth. It felt like he didn’t care about anything at all. It was even far from many comic Thors. The intense emotions were gone. So there was nothing to grasp onto. As the main character, you have to have at least that. ALL familiarity was gone along with his hair. Too many changes at once.

Loki was mostly ok. As mischief he’s a morally ambiguous character. Whether redemption arc or not, how his strength and intellect were downplayed so much for comic relief was not believable to me..

It felt very much like Taika wanted to disarm him to put Chris more in the spotlight. Which Is understandable on Chris’s POV. Tom seemed like he was forced into it though.

I love Gotg, but within its own established world. The anus thing. I feel like Tom was mentally cringing. He plays way more developed characters than that.

I don’t get how the electrocution scene could be funny. Loki deserved it. Undoubtedly. but how was it funny? I don’t see Thor even doing that. At least not leaving him like that anyway. I don’t see how it could be funny? .-.

Warriors 3.

Jane MIA. She got a sentence of explanation,
even though she was a big presence in TDW.

It was overall a bit sloppy. the ends were not only left untied but sometimes ignored all together.

er… that said.. I respect that everyone enjoyed it. And adored it. Its okay 🙂 Its okay that most people liked it. I just wish it wasn’t canon. Because non Ragnarok fanfic is going to be near impossible to find now. Ragnarok is canon now. I still have hope in AU though.. 🙂

Reblogging with permission. Some civil, reasoned criticism. (And fortunately, if people get any hate for reblogs of this post, it will also come to me and we can laugh about it together.)

I think it’s time for a chat, fandom.

lunariagold:

darklittlestories:

raven-brings-light:

philosopherking1887:

I have made it no secret that I am greatly dissatisfied with many aspects of Thor: Ragnarok, most especially the characterizations of Thor and Loki and the discontinuity with their characterization in earlier movies. Among more extreme Loki fans, including those who (reportedly) used to call themselves “Loki’s Resistance” and are widely known as “Loki-apologists” (I prefer “unconditional Loki-justifiers,” for reasons of precision), people have no trouble saying that they disliked the movie because of the way it thinned out Loki’s character. Loki fans who are in networks with the Loki-justifiers but do not hate Thor (as so many of the justifiers do) also have no trouble pointing out that Ragnarok messed up Thor’s character, virtually disregarding the process of maturation he had gone through in previous MCU movies.

However, it seems that more moderate Loki fans (who do acknowledge his flaws and misdeeds), including but not limited to Thor/Loki shippers, have been feeling pressured into silence about their dissatisfaction with the movie. Four such people have communicated with me about it under their own names, two relatively openly in replies to my posts, two in private messages; a few more have expressed similar sentiments in anonymous asks. I’m kind of concerned that smart, thoughtful people feel like they can’t express their views for fear of being shunned or bombarded with hate. (About a movie, FFS; this isn’t a matter of life and death!)

Maybe this is just a function of the overall climate of Tumblr, which a friend of mine has characterized as just a bunch of young people all agreeing with each other (in my more bitter moments, I’ve used the terms “groupthink” and “circle-jerk”). It seems that around here group identities revolve around people all sharing the same views. Arguments (or firefights, really) can only be had on a hostile footing across group lines; there’s not much of a chance for productive or friendly disagreement within a community. As a philosopher (and a Jew), this strikes me as extremely bizarre and more than a little creepy. I disagree with other philosophers about a lot of things, and we argue, and raise objections to each other’s papers, but we’re still friends, still enjoy many of the same things, still share (largely) the same basic values. There are subcommunities, to be sure, of those who agree about certain issues, but we are still a community, engaged in a common enterprise, in spite of (indeed, driven by!) our disagreements.

What can we do to make the fandom such that people feel comfortable expressing their actual views even if they disagree with the majority of the community, or just (as it may be) with the loudest voices? If the fandom is already open to such disagreement, how can we reassure people that they won’t be ostracized for holding minority/unpopular views?

I hope that some people with more standing in the fandom than I have will take an active part in opening it up to productive disagreement. All these “I thought it was just me” and “everyone’s been telling me I’m crazy” and “I was so relieved to see your post” and “I feel like I should just stfu if my interpretation is different from the main one” messages are making me kind of alarmed and kind of sad.

Signal boosting and adding –

I didn’t even know this was a problem until recently, and the fact that people are actually nervous to share their opinions about a movie is worrisome.

I too have some issues with Ragnarok, but I also have various issues with all the movies, and I don’t think I’ve ever been shy about expressing them…if I ever don’t bring them up, it’s just because I prefer talking about the things that I DO like. I do realize I have a pretty thick skin, though.

Anyway, I for one welcome all opinions both positive and negative about Ragnarok, and I enjoy discussions among people with different viewpoints. How better to think about issues from different angles, or have the chance to further explore why you feel a certain way, or even maybe come to change your mind about things? I’ve done all of those in the past. I sincerely hope that we as a fandom are mature enough not to flame each other over differences of opinion.

Please no one ever feel the need to keep quiet on my account! And I hope that maybe people will start to get more comfortable with expressing non-majority opinions.

PREACH!

Though I adored Ragnarok—probably because I was prepared for mindless fun and I got even more fun than I’d expected (and I didn’t find it very mindless)—I can’t stand fandom wank. It’s fascinating as hell to chat about our differences of experience and analysis of the films.

But yeah, I agree it is very jarring to have three distinct moods for the films that should have continuity but instead we have three sets of writers/directors who have vastly different takes and HUGE resulting mood whiplash. I get that very much.

Yeah I basically made a conscious decision to just enjoy Ragnarok for what it was- and be glad that Thor/Loki were together… and also Grandgoldblum- and not get all deep into criticism. I didn’t like everything; for instance Thor left me completely cold and I get how the mood is so different than previous films it can be jarring. In general, I share deeper meta opinions with closest friends because they know where I’m at already and it’s easier to break it down with them than with a bunch of people over the void.

I can get very annoyed and passionate over some things I don’t like, but I do not take it out on other people. I would walk away and take a breather if it would get up my crack this badly. Everybody has a right to enjoy what they do, or not enjoy it; it’s that simple. Be like Siskel and Ebert: You can argue opposite views until blue in the face but it’s not personal; you can still be respectful.

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed many things about Ragnarok, too. I thought Jeff Goldblum playing the Grandmaster playing Jeff Goldblum was delightful, and I cracked up pretty loudly when “Pure Imagination” from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory started playing on the weird introduction ride. Tessa Thompson as Valkyrie was badass, relatable, sexy, and wonderful (along with her giant flaming bottles of space booze). There were even some genuine moments of family pathos that I appreciated, including Odin telling Loki that Frigga would have been proud of his spell. I liked three interactions between Thor and Loki: the one in the circular prison hallway where Thor throws rocks at Loki’s projection (a little childish, but also amusing); the one in the elevator before the “Get Help” bit; and of course the “I’m here” at the end. Those can provide sustenance for emotionally satisfying fanfiction, even if we have to ignore most of the way Thor and Loki were characterized in order to take full advantage of them.

But sharing critical opinions only with close friends doesn’t always help. Two of the people who have talked to me said specifically that they have shared their concerns with friends and that’s how they got the impression that they were alone in those concerns; one even said that their friends told them they were “imagining things.” These are people who wouldn’t have started conversations with me if I hadn’t put my dissenting views out in the open. So no, it’s not about “taking out” my annoyance on other people; it’s about trying to dispel the illusion of universal agreement so that people don’t feel isolated and “smothered” (their word).

I think it’s time for a chat, fandom.

incredifishface:

philosopherking1887:

I have made it no secret that I am greatly dissatisfied with many aspects of Thor: Ragnarok, most especially the characterizations of Thor and Loki and the discontinuity with their characterization in earlier movies. Among more extreme Loki fans, including those who (reportedly) used to call themselves “Loki’s Resistance” and are widely known as “Loki-apologists” (I prefer “unconditional Loki-justifiers,” for reasons of precision), people have no trouble saying that they disliked the movie because of the way it thinned out Loki’s character. Loki fans who are in networks with the Loki-justifiers but do not hate Thor (as so many of the justifiers do) also have no trouble pointing out that Ragnarok messed up Thor’s character, virtually disregarding the process of maturation he had gone through in previous MCU movies.

However, it seems that more moderate Loki fans (who do acknowledge his flaws and misdeeds), including but not limited to Thor/Loki shippers, have been feeling pressured into silence about their dissatisfaction with the movie. Four such people have communicated with me about it under their own names, two relatively openly in replies to my posts, two in private messages; a few more have expressed similar sentiments in anonymous asks. I’m kind of concerned that smart, thoughtful people feel like they can’t express their views for fear of being shunned or bombarded with hate. (About a movie, FFS; this isn’t a matter of life and death!)

Maybe this is just a function of the overall climate of Tumblr, which a friend of mine has characterized as just a bunch of young people all agreeing with each other (in my more bitter moments, I’ve used the terms “groupthink” and “circle-jerk”). It seems that around here group identities revolve around people all sharing the same views. Arguments (or firefights, really) can only be had on a hostile footing across group lines; there’s not much of a chance for productive or friendly disagreement within a community. As a philosopher (and a Jew), this strikes me as extremely bizarre and more than a little creepy. I disagree with other philosophers about a lot of things, and we argue, and raise objections to each other’s papers, but we’re still friends, still enjoy many of the same things, still share (largely) the same basic values. There are subcommunities, to be sure, of those who agree about certain issues, but we are still a community, engaged in a common enterprise, in spite of (indeed, driven by!) our disagreements.

What can we do to make the fandom such that people feel comfortable expressing their actual views even if they disagree with the majority of the community, or just (as it may be) with the loudest voices? If the fandom is already open to such disagreement, how can we reassure people that they won’t be ostracized for holding minority/unpopular views?

I hope that some people with more standing in the fandom than I have will take an active part in opening it up to productive disagreement. All these “I thought it was just me” and “everyone’s been telling me I’m crazy” and “I was so relieved to see your post” and “I feel like I should just stfu if my interpretation is different from the main one” messages are making me kind of alarmed and kind of sad.

(climbs on the Rostra) SO I have massive issues with Rangarök.

I haven’t voiced many of those issues out loud not because I am afraid, but because I prefer to only express positive things in public, in general.

And mostly, because I know how this place works.

When you make a post on Tumblr, it’s like climbing on a podium and voicing criticism to an invisible, indistinct crowd, and inviting that mass of people to reply to you. Now, some will do this moderately and respectfully and in a civilized manner, and many others will throw things at you from their own podiums, tag you with reductionist tags you yourself would not identify with, and then use those, and every word you’ve said, to try and destroy whatever it is they’ve understood about what you were saying, which won’t be much, tbh, and also destroy you, in the process. In other words, when it comes to rational, civilized debate, Tumblr as a platform fucking sucks.

This is why I have talked about my issues in private, because I don’t want to spread negativity, and because I feel it’s inviting a kind of interaction I really don’t feel will add to my enjoyment of the fandom at all.

However, that is just me. I have indeed felt a lot of people expressing this kind of fear you say, Phil.

I get the feeling some people are positively intimidated by BFN who regularly and boldly contribute their opinions to the fandom, and will reply to posts they disagree with.

So I get how this might feel. You, a “normal fan”, put out an opinion to your blog, with a few followers, likeminded individuals who will reblog your stuff. And everything is going great and you’re getting positive comments and additions that make you feel understood and supported, until suddenly, there from Up On High, one of these Elders falls upon your humble opinion and strongly disagrees with you. Yikes. I was just talking to my mates here, how did this happen?

And it gets worse, because that Elder has other Elder friends who now also enter the conversation and Fucking Hell I am Under Attack By Powers Beyond my Ken. And here I was only in my corner doing my things. I am being Cornered. And some of those Elders have even blocked me! (some people block people often bc it’s a way of curating their experience of this place. The more followers you have, the wiser that strategy gets, I think.) shit this is scary! I better shut up next time!

Result: The Fandom Is Afraid to Go Against the Elders’s Opinions.

Now. Those Elders? Normal people, I swear. Their Elder friends? Also normal people. They’ve been here longer, they have more followers, they are respected by their output to the fandom in whichever form, but when they replied to your post they did it as a normal fan entering the debate. Which you invited when you put your post out there. Because this is how Tumblr works. It’s not just your friendly trusty followers who will see it, and sometimes that’s good, and sometimes that’s awful. For civilized fandom debate, let’s face it, this system is not great.

And this is why I will probably continue to keep trying to express mainly positivity in my blog, because I prefer to restrict more nuanced, trickier debate to people I know, trust, and respect, in a contained environment, which is the opposite of Tumblr.

Nonetheless, I hate to hear that some people are afraid of voicing their critical opinions in public. I don’ t think there are real grounds to that fear (the Thor fandom is quite a welcoming place, compared to others I know of. No major wars, no hate campaigns from within, moderate ship wars, def no mobs sent against dissenters, not that I know of, even if it feels like this to some of you.)

NOW, if by expressing my opinions out loud I can help people feel more comfortable voicing theirs, here goes: (i was going to put them under the cut bc this post is too long already, but I would hate for people to think I am actually afraid, so no cut)

I hated Thor’s characterization in Ragnarök, dialogue wise. I don’t think Hemsworth is funny. I found so many of the jokes jarring. I really, really wasn’t crazy about the slapstick. I mean, My Thor can trip up, sure, but he is still a prince of Asgard. I compare it to Loki. He also tripped up a lot, but he didn’t break character when he got up. Just saying it can be done. So yeah, sure, lighten Thor up, make it funny. Just make sure he sounds and acts more like Thor while you’re at it. Just my opinion.

ON THE OTHER HAND, this film had some of the best moments in the entire trilogy. With all its misgivings, far be it from me to tear it all down. I LOVED lots of things about it. The Grandmaster, Thor God of Thunder, Hela, the dragon, Valky, more Odin (I’m a sucker for family feels), “I’m here”… NO NECK GRAB DAMMIT but yeah ok fade to black and I’ll take it from there in my dreams.

WHILE I AM AT IT, I had issues just as big with the previous films, if of a different nature. Just as I didn’t like Hemsworth’s shenanigans in Ragnarök, i feel it’s equally jarring and painful to watch Thor making jokes half a second after his brother’s death, and not shortly after his mother’s death, which he was allowed to mourn for like ½ second. That film was a godawful mess, and boring AF. The only bits I enjoy (but I enjoy them a lot) are the interactions between the brothers, and the Sad Poncho of Sad. Thor has never looked prettier.

And while we’re at it, the jokes in Thor 1 in general were pretty awful too. And don’t get me started about Thor’s arc. Yes he talks High Speech, but his character goes from Spoilt Prince to Worthy Noble Man by the power of Natalie Portman’s Big Brown Eyes in 3 days and I’m just as pissed off as Loki about it. BUT, that film has those Shakespearean insights into the family dynamics I will feed on for the rest of my life, and it established Loki as the most compelling villain in the history of ever, and that’s what I take from it.

and as always, I ramble too much.

Anyway, there. Opinions.

If you take one thing from this post, let it be this: no BFN here is out to get anyone. there is no witch hunt in this fandom for those who did not like Ragnarök. Don’t be afraid of voicing your opinions.

But know also that this platform is a shitty place for nuanced debate, and your opinions will invite replies, and you won’t always like them. That’s how this place works. So take that into account, if nothing else.

You’re mischaracterizing the problem based on false assumptions. The people who have talked to me aren’t entry-level peons; they’re well-established in the fandom, and a couple of them have been around as long as, if not longer than, the B-est of BNFs (Big Name Fans, for the uninitiated). So they certainly don’t regard BNFs as mystical Elders descending on them from on high, if that’s who they’re worried about. Based on the feedback I’ve gotten, there seem to be two sources of concern: (1) hate from anonymous askers and randos in the crowd (which is, as you say, a danger of the podium-like format); and (2) the sense that they’re not allowed to express opinions that differ from those of their fandom circle of friends/acquaintances.

I beg to differ with your suggestion that it has anything to do with expressing negativity vs. positive attitudes. People are perfectly happy to share negative views, provided they think everyone in their audience will share them: on Trump (of course), Taylor Swift, heteronormative media, patriarchal culture, white people… But those are larger societal issues, you may say; what about the content of the fandom we’re primarily here for? People in MCU fandom have no problem being negative about, e.g., Joss Whedon’s contributions to canon, especially Age of Ultron, precisely because they assume that everyone agrees with them. They say something brief and dismissive, or offer some flimsy reasons, and everyone nods along; it’s the ritual Two Minutes of Hate. Anyone who disagrees – and I know from private conversations that I’m not the only one – keeps their mouth shut for reasons (1) and (2) described above. Of course, as noted before, this seems to be a general problem with Tumblr culture, not with the MCU or Thor fandom as such. I guess I was hoping that in our little corner we might be able to overcome the tendency toward enforced unanimity, but if it is a necessary consequence of the format… (Why am I here again?)

Regarding (1), anonymous/random hate, I think there’s perfectly good reason to be worried about that, especially if you have a decent number of followers and your posts are likely to get a fair amount of uptake. I did get an obnoxious reply from some rando to a post detailing my concerns about Taika Waititi’s approach to Loki’s character. My approach – which I realize is not everyone’s – was to try to engage the person in a discussion about the issues I raised (search “wafflediaries” on my blog for the blow-by-blow). Fairly predictably, it devolved into the person calling me a racist for not liking TW’s characterization (because apparently now every schmuck on the internet is an authority on Maori culture). I was a little rattled, a little worked up, but I was able to laugh it off and move on – which I know not everyone can do. However unproductive the conversation was with respect to the standard goal of convincing one’s opponent, it was nonetheless productive for the person who was counting down the days until someone said that not liking Ragnarok makes one a racist (you’re welcome), and for communicating to people who had similar concerns about the movie that they were not the only one.

What can we do about that fear? Maybe nothing; anonymous hate seems to be endemic to Tumblr and/or fandom. Nonetheless, crowds are made up of people, and maybe people can be convinced that the correct way to respond to opinions they disagree with is through civil presentation of reasons, not hit-and-run insults. I will admit to not always being as polite as I could be when expressing disagreement (though regarding the exchange described above, you can’t really expect me to be polite to someone who starts off with gratuitous nastiness); that’s something we could all stand to work on. And maybe, if you want to avoid direct engagement, the correct approach is to start a new thread, maybe with a link to the post you disagreed with, explaining why you disagree. But the important thing is to have a plurality of views in the ether so that people won’t think they’re alone and/or crazy.

What’s going on with (2)? I don’t know, and that might be a personal problem you and I simply don’t suffer from, though it is apparently pretty widespread around here. (A consequence of the high rate of social anxiety? I dunno, I have a fair amount of social anxiety, but somehow it dissipates when someone is saying something that’s wrong.) But what’s so sad and ironic about it is that if no one expresses views contrary to the ones they’ve been hearing because they haven’t heard anyone who shares them, there are going to be a bunch of people silently disagreeing with the apparent consensus and not being able to identify each other. Someone has to talk first. I guess that’s me? If people are agreeing with me in confidence but afraid or reluctant to speak up themselves, should I put them in touch with each other?

Finally: you risk very little by saying you think Ragnarok had some problems, but no more than either of the other Thor movies. The view people seem reluctant to express is that the problems with Ragnarok are different in both kind and magnitude from the problems with the previous films: that it fails to do its job, as the close to a trilogy, to follow up on and provide satisfying pay-off for what came before – not just as a matter of tone or aesthetic, but of doing justice to the characters we’ve come to care about. And from private conversations, personal experience, and feedback in the reblog tags on this post, it seems people hesitate to voice these views for fear of either being called a racist (I feel so proud), or of being dismissed as one of those obnoxious, irrational Loki-justifiers and thus excluded from the fandom subcommunity they considered themselves to be part of (this one actually bothers me). If it comes from anons and/or randos who aren’t really in your network, it may not change anything, but it still hurts. If newcomers are so dismissed by people with more clout, yeah, that can pose a bigger problem for their experience. If people are worried about getting that from people they considered friends – and I don’t know if that’s precisely what they’re concerned about, so much as not rocking the boat – I think they need to be reassured that they won’t be cast into the outer darkness for disagreeing. Maybe some people will find your reply reassuring, though the tone is pretty dismissive.

I think it’s time for a chat, fandom.

I have made it no secret that I am greatly dissatisfied with many aspects of Thor: Ragnarok, most especially the characterizations of Thor and Loki and the discontinuity with their characterization in earlier movies. Among more extreme Loki fans, including those who (reportedly) used to call themselves “Loki’s Resistance” and are widely known as “Loki-apologists” (I prefer “unconditional Loki-justifiers,” for reasons of precision), people have no trouble saying that they disliked the movie because of the way it thinned out Loki’s character. Loki fans who are in networks with the Loki-justifiers but do not hate Thor (as so many of the justifiers do) also have no trouble pointing out that Ragnarok messed up Thor’s character, virtually disregarding the process of maturation he had gone through in previous MCU movies.

However, it seems that more moderate Loki fans (who do acknowledge his flaws and misdeeds), including but not limited to Thor/Loki shippers, have been feeling pressured into silence about their dissatisfaction with the movie. Four such people have communicated with me about it under their own names, two relatively openly in replies to my posts, two in private messages; a few more have expressed similar sentiments in anonymous asks. I’m kind of concerned that smart, thoughtful people feel like they can’t express their views for fear of being shunned or bombarded with hate. (About a movie, FFS; this isn’t a matter of life and death!)

Maybe this is just a function of the overall climate of Tumblr, which a friend of mine has characterized as just a bunch of young people all agreeing with each other (in my more bitter moments, I’ve used the terms “groupthink” and “circle-jerk”). It seems that around here group identities revolve around people all sharing the same views. Arguments (or firefights, really) can only be had on a hostile footing across group lines; there’s not much of a chance for productive or friendly disagreement within a community. As a philosopher (and a Jew), this strikes me as extremely bizarre and more than a little creepy. I disagree with other philosophers about a lot of things, and we argue, and raise objections to each other’s papers, but we’re still friends, still enjoy many of the same things, still share (largely) the same basic values. There are subcommunities, to be sure, of those who agree about certain issues, but we are still a community, engaged in a common enterprise, in spite of (indeed, driven by!) our disagreements.

What can we do to make the fandom such that people feel comfortable expressing their actual views even if they disagree with the majority of the community, or just (as it may be) with the loudest voices? If the fandom is already open to such disagreement, how can we reassure people that they won’t be ostracized for holding minority/unpopular views?

I hope that some people with more standing in the fandom than I have will take an active part in opening it up to productive disagreement. All these “I thought it was just me” and “everyone’s been telling me I’m crazy” and “I was so relieved to see your post” and “I feel like I should just stfu if my interpretation is different from the main one” messages are making me kind of alarmed and kind of sad.