No, I don’t
agree with it. This is the trope that TR was trying to maintain by retconning
all the previous canon in the franchise. Thor has never been a love martyr(except maybe once)
because:
1. Thor is
not the perfect and blameless angel who loves his completely evil brother. Thor
and Loki are both flawed characters and their relationship has been on the rocks because they both hurt each other and never actually talked about it.
2. Unlike
what Thor thinks, most of Loki’s horrible actions wasn’t about hurting Thor.
3. It didn’t
take a long time until Ragnarok for Thor to give up on Loki. Thor gave up on him
in Avengers.
Let’s discuss
these points in more details:
Thor starts
his journey as an arrogant warmonger prince. He is the golden child of his
realm and Loki is his shadow. No one respects Loki or take him seriously the
way they respect Thor. Not guards, not Heimdall, not Thors’ friends and not
even servants. The way Thor treated Loki certainly had an effect on Loki’s
situation(aside from other cultural aspects). Thor doesn’t respect Loki: “Enough!”,
“Know your place brother!”, “Some do battles, other do tricks”.
He doesn’t even look at Loki, when Loki speaks with him. The way Loki reacts
after these mistreatments doesn’t show his surprise, it shows that he’s used to
them. Despite all of this, Loki still cares about Thor and Loves him: “You are
my brother and my friend. Sometimes I’m envious but never doubt that I love you”.
Sabotaging
Thor’s coronation was not a betrayal to Thor. Loki knew that Thor wasn’t fit to be a king yet, and
he tried to stop it. Just like Thor tried to take the throne from Hela, who was
the rightful heir, because she wasn’t suitable for the job.
I always
think the worst thing that Loki has ever done to Thor is lying to him when Thor
was in SHIELD when he was already down after failing to lift Mjolnir. Thor’s “Can
I come home?” and his tears always break my heart.
Now the
paragraph says that Loki tried to kill Thor at least twice! No, Loki almost
killed him once with the destroyer. But that was it. In their fight on the
Bifrost he only tried to stop Thor and stall him so he can destroy Jotunheim.
After that Loki never tried to kill Thor. He dropped Thor in the Hellicarrier
because he knew if Mjolnir could crack that glass, it could also break it. He
was never surprised that Thor showed up later. And don’t tell me him stabbing
Thor with that tiny dagger was an attempt on Thor’s life.
Loki trying
to commit genocide on Jotunhim wasn’t about hurting Thor, it was about proving
his worthiness to Odin. Loki killed Coulson mostly because he was in his way
and he was threatening Loki with a destroyer gun. But faking his death to usurp Odin? Really?
*sighs* Loki’s illusions are not solid unless it’s on the person. So Loki
getting stabbed by Kursed wasn’t an illusion. He was really stabbed through
the chest to save Thor. He had no way of knowing what would happen when he attacked
Kursed. This wasn’t planned. And he couldn’t know that he would survive it. So
after he survived he didn’t tell Thor because Thor promised he would return
Loki to his cell. Usurping the throne from Odin had nothing to do with Thor.
Again it wasn’t about hurting Thor. It was about getting his revenge on Odin
for sentencing him to solitary confinement for life and all the other awful
things he’d done. Then Loki as Odin offered the throne to Thor. Loki even asked him to confirm
that it was really what Thor wanted and wasn’t Jane’s wish. None of the things
that the paragraph mentioned was an act of betrayal against Thor. So the line
that Thor says in TR: “I trust you, you betray me. Round and round in
circles we go” is not true.
Now let’s
talk about Thor giving up on Loki and the only situation that love martyr trope can be applied to him. When he found Loki on Earth, first he asked
about Tesseract, then he said Loki’s grievances were imagined slights and then threatened
him. He once again tried to reason with Loki on the Stark Tower and was stabbed
for it. That was the last time Thor ever tried to talk to Loki. That was when
he gave up on Loki. It was obvious that Thor had forgiven Loki after everything Loki did to him in the first Thor movie and still wanted Loki to go home. He made mistakes when he was talking to Loki, but imo forgiving Loki after the way he lied to him and almost killed him was a big deal and that makes Thor a love martyr. But then Thor gives up on Loki after he is stabbed. And that’s the end of him being in the love martyr trope. He never visited Loki when Loki was imprisoned. Not even to
tell him that their mother was dead. Even when he went to Loki for help, Thor
treated Loki like a stolen relic(“locked away here until you may have use of
me”): “I did not come here to share our grief” “I grant it to
you, vengeance, and after this cell”.
Thor and
Loki both loved and cared about each other despite the fact that the other one
hurt them. But Thor is not a love martyr. He never tried to talk to Loki and
understand him about his just grievances. He never asked Loki what happened to
him after he let go. He also made mistakes. He is not blameless in all of this.
And I just talked about the Thor we saw in every movie except TR. Because TR
Thor is very ooc and he constantly dismisses Loki and his pain. In other movies Thor simply doesn’t understand Loki. In TR he just doesn’t care to understand despite Loki trying to explain to him and trying to find a common ground with Thor. What Thor does in TR is a disgusting reverse psychology method, not giving up on Loki. Because “you’re late” implies that Thor knew Loki would come. So imo that paragraph in TV tropes page got it all wrong.
Imagine being Heimdall and having a spirit so generous that you could sincerely say “welcome home” to the individual who once turned you into an icicle and is now showing up 15 minutes late without Starbucks to the apocalypse that he sort of started.
That’s because Heimdall knows that he himself was a traitor and deserved it. He also sees that Loki is more loyal than he has to be. Oh yeah, and his brother Thor was the one that told him to go start Ragnarok in the first place.
Heimdall commited treasons TWO times. The second time Loki-as-Odin pardoned him. Heimdall still was the gatekeeper in Avengers: AoU (2015).
OP is so willingly blind and petty? Loki showed up with an evacuation vessel to help a place he didn’t own any loyalty or debt to. As for “icicling” Heimdall, lol Loki would have been in his right to kill him if he wanted, seeing as he was King at the time.
Also? Heimdall only saw Loki cause Loki allowed him to, so guess who was being magnanimous in that scene? Yep, Loki.
And let’s not forget that Heimdall went for the kill, and Loki in response just froze him.
Yeah, that was a weird bit of writing in Thor 1, which is in most respects a very well-crafted movie. Why did Heimdall (apparently) attempt to kill Loki after Loki pronounced a banishment sentence? Was it revenge for having let the Frost Giants into Asgard, resulting in the deaths of two Einherjar? Did he believe Loki posed an immediate threat to the safety of Asgard? Also, why did Loki let Heimdall see him coming back from Jotunheim previously, and why did he admit to letting the Jotnar in before Thor’s coronation? He still had plausible deniability at that point.
I certainly don’t hate Heimdall, but he does seem inordinately hostile to Loki in Thor 1, and is suspicious of him – to the point of disobeying both Loki’s orders and Odin’s by sending the W4 to Asgard to retrieve Thor – before he has any good reason to be. I wonder if Heimdall’s hostility to Loki is a subtle allusion to the fact that in myth, they’re prophesied to kill each other at Ragnarok
Interesting point about Heimdall still being gatekeeper in AOU – that hadn’t occurred to me. So Loki must have banished him later… maybe it took him a while to figure out that it was Loki in disguise? If so, that’s a really impressive masquerade on Loki’s part; he must have been wearing the Odin glamour at virtually every moment, even when alone and/or asleep. Alternatively, Heimdall might have been aware but kept it to himself because after TDW, he knew that Odin wasn’t a fit ruler anymore. But then he might have threatened to reveal Loki’s identity because Loki did something he didn’t approve of, whereupon Loki banished him.
We first see Heimdall in Thor 1 when Thor and his merry band are approaching Heimdall for travel to Jotunheim. Loki speaks first and Heimdall cuts him off & harshly tells him “Enough.” Just another example of an Asgardian commoner treating an Asgardian Prince with disdain. Moments later, as “the Team” heads inside for transport, Volstagg walks past Loki and insults him saying, “what’s the matter, Silver Tongue turn to lead?” No one, at this point, knows that Loki gave info to Laufey that allowed a few Frost Giants to enter the Weapons Vault during Thor’s coronation. I’ve always been angered at the lack of respect Loki received at the hands of non-royal Asgardians from the beginning of the film.
Actually, Heimdall interrupts to say “You’re not dressed warmly enough,” Loki starts to say “I don’t know what you mean,” and Thor cuts him off with “Enough.” The upshot is that non-royals don’t show him deference and Thor reinforces that behavior rather than discouraging it. The deleted scene in which the servant laughs at Thor’s “Some do battle, others just do tricks” quip both establishes that dynamic and provides a presumed explanation: Loki’s use of magic is disdained, in keeping with the attitude in historical Norse culture that male practitioners of seidr are shamefully unmanly.
@tracheometry First, Loki didn’t think the Jotuns were his people because: 1. Odin brainwashed him to believe Jotuns are a race of despicable monsters. 2. Odin told him he was abandoned to die by the Jotuns when he was a baby. (It probably was a lie but that’s another topic.)
Second, Heimdall not only welcomed Thor back but even committed treason to bring him back. And Thor at that time was a murderer for hundreds of lives, who would have committed genocide if his daddy had not arrived and stopped him in time.
Third, in fact after Ragnarok Loki wanted to reconcile with Heimdall and explain everything to him, but Heimdall was unmoved and uninterested. From Avengers Infinity War prelude novel:
Bold of you to assume that people who comment on a post that we’re “delusional” are actually open to entertaining evidence or arguments to the contrary. Or trying to understand the nuance of a villain who is presented as sympathetic, not because his actions are supposed to be justified or excusable, but because we can understand the circumstances and the troubled mindset that led him to commit them. The contempt and mistrust Loki receives from other Asgardians feed into the insecurity, self-loathing, and hunger for approval that eventually push him into attempting genocide. He desperately feels he needs to prove what a good, loyal Asgardian he is not only because he’s found out he isn’t one by birth, but because his valor and masculinity – which Asgard prizes above all – are constantly being questioned, and he wonders whether his biological heritage is part of the reason he’s never seemed good enough.
The excerpt from the prelude novel paints a curious picture. Heimdall doesn’t hold Loki’s actions against him – but he still refuses to reconcile or establish friendly relations. I guess he has reason not to trust Loki, but if he really doesn’t still blame him, it’s not clear why he’s being so dickish.
Imagine being Heimdall and having a spirit so generous that you could sincerely say “welcome home” to the individual who once turned you into an icicle and is now showing up 15 minutes late without Starbucks to the apocalypse that he sort of started.
That’s because Heimdall knows that he himself was a traitor and deserved it. He also sees that Loki is more loyal than he has to be. Oh yeah, and his brother Thor was the one that told him to go start Ragnarok in the first place.
Heimdall commited treasons TWO times. The second time Loki-as-Odin pardoned him. Heimdall still was the gatekeeper in Avengers: AoU (2015).
OP is so willingly blind and petty? Loki showed up with an evacuation vessel to help a place he didn’t own any loyalty or debt to. As for “icicling” Heimdall, lol Loki would have been in his right to kill him if he wanted, seeing as he was King at the time.
Also? Heimdall only saw Loki cause Loki allowed him to, so guess who was being magnanimous in that scene? Yep, Loki.
And let’s not forget that Heimdall went for the kill, and Loki in response just froze him.
Yeah, that was a weird bit of writing in Thor 1, which is in most respects a very well-crafted movie. Why did Heimdall (apparently) attempt to kill Loki after Loki pronounced a banishment sentence? Was it revenge for having let the Frost Giants into Asgard, resulting in the deaths of two Einherjar? Did he believe Loki posed an immediate threat to the safety of Asgard? Also, why did Loki let Heimdall see him coming back from Jotunheim previously, and why did he admit to letting the Jotnar in before Thor’s coronation? He still had plausible deniability at that point.
I certainly don’t hate Heimdall, but he does seem inordinately hostile to Loki in Thor 1, and is suspicious of him – to the point of disobeying both Loki’s orders and Odin’s by sending the W4 to Asgard to retrieve Thor – before he has any good reason to be. I wonder if Heimdall’s hostility to Loki is a subtle allusion to the fact that in myth, they’re prophesied to kill each other at Ragnarok
Interesting point about Heimdall still being gatekeeper in AOU – that hadn’t occurred to me. So Loki must have banished him later… maybe it took him a while to figure out that it was Loki in disguise? If so, that’s a really impressive masquerade on Loki’s part; he must have been wearing the Odin glamour at virtually every moment, even when alone and/or asleep. Alternatively, Heimdall might have been aware but kept it to himself because after TDW, he knew that Odin wasn’t a fit ruler anymore. But then he might have threatened to reveal Loki’s identity because Loki did something he didn’t approve of, whereupon Loki banished him.
We first see Heimdall in Thor 1 when Thor and his merry band are approaching Heimdall for travel to Jotunheim. Loki speaks first and Heimdall cuts him off & harshly tells him “Enough.” Just another example of an Asgardian commoner treating an Asgardian Prince with disdain. Moments later, as “the Team” heads inside for transport, Volstagg walks past Loki and insults him saying, “what’s the matter, Silver Tongue turn to lead?” No one, at this point, knows that Loki gave info to Laufey that allowed a few Frost Giants to enter the Weapons Vault during Thor’s coronation. I’ve always been angered at the lack of respect Loki received at the hands of non-royal Asgardians from the beginning of the film.
Actually, Heimdall interrupts to say “You’re not dressed warmly enough,” Loki starts to say “I don’t know what you mean,” and Thor cuts him off with “Enough.” The upshot is that non-royals don’t show him deference and Thor reinforces that behavior rather than discouraging it. The deleted scene in which the servant laughs at Thor’s “Some do battle, others just do tricks” quip both establishes that dynamic and provides a presumed explanation: Loki’s use of magic is disdained, in keeping with the attitude in historical Norse culture that male practitioners of seidr are shamefully unmanly.
Imagine being Heimdall and having a spirit so generous that you could sincerely say “welcome home” to the individual who once turned you into an icicle and is now showing up 15 minutes late without Starbucks to the apocalypse that he sort of started.
That’s because Heimdall knows that he himself was a traitor and deserved it. He also sees that Loki is more loyal than he has to be. Oh yeah, and his brother Thor was the one that told him to go start Ragnarok in the first place.
Heimdall commited treasons TWO times. The second time Loki-as-Odin pardoned him. Heimdall still was the gatekeeper in Avengers: AoU (2015).
OP is so willingly blind and petty? Loki showed up with an evacuation vessel to help a place he didn’t own any loyalty or debt to. As for “icicling” Heimdall, lol Loki would have been in his right to kill him if he wanted, seeing as he was King at the time.
Also? Heimdall only saw Loki cause Loki allowed him to, so guess who was being magnanimous in that scene? Yep, Loki.
And let’s not forget that Heimdall went for the kill, and Loki in response just froze him.
Yeah, that was a weird bit of writing in Thor 1, which is in most respects a very well-crafted movie. Why did Heimdall (apparently) attempt to kill Loki after Loki pronounced a banishment sentence? Was it revenge for having let the Frost Giants into Asgard, resulting in the deaths of two Einherjar? Did he believe Loki posed an immediate threat to the safety of Asgard? Also, why did Loki let Heimdall see him coming back from Jotunheim previously, and why did he admit to letting the Jotnar in before Thor’s coronation? He still had plausible deniability at that point.
I certainly don’t hate Heimdall, but he does seem inordinately hostile to Loki in Thor 1, and is suspicious of him – to the point of disobeying both Loki’s orders and Odin’s by sending the W4 to Asgard to retrieve Thor – before he has any good reason to be. I wonder if Heimdall’s hostility to Loki is a subtle allusion to the fact that in myth, they’re prophesied to kill each other at Ragnarok
Interesting point about Heimdall still being gatekeeper in AOU – that hadn’t occurred to me. So Loki must have banished him later… maybe it took him a while to figure out that it was Loki in disguise? If so, that’s a really impressive masquerade on Loki’s part; he must have been wearing the Odin glamour at virtually every moment, even when alone and/or asleep. Alternatively, Heimdall might have been aware but kept it to himself because after TDW, he knew that Odin wasn’t a fit ruler anymore. But then he might have threatened to reveal Loki’s identity because Loki did something he didn’t approve of, whereupon Loki banished him.
Loki is the Philosopher King 