writernotwaiting:

writernotwaiting:

I’m not quite sure why I feel compelled to make this declaration, though it may be vaguely related to posts I have seen floating around making statements about Loki and/or Thor that just flat out seem to defy logic. So here are a couple of short lists.

1. Things that are true in my head:

· When we first meet Thor he really would have made an awful king.

· Thor is not a dumb jock. He is intelligent, but at the start of the first movie he is really arrogant and lacks both empathy and the willingness to think about the long-term consequences of his actions.

· That Loki was marginalized by Thor’s friends but not flat-out bullied. That for years he was the annoying little brother who they really didn’t want around but who wouldn’t leave. (As a little sister who grew up in a neighborhood where there were no other little girls to hang around with, I know exactly what it looks and feels like to be Big Brother’s Tag-along).

· When Loki tells Thor that Odin is dead, it’s bc he still thinks Thor would be a horrible king and wants to make sure he stays on earth.

· When Loki sends the Destroyer after Thor, he has no reason to believe Thor has changed at all.

· When Loki sends the Destroyer to eliminate Thor, Loki has also kind of started to go off the rails with self-loathing and is Not Thinking Rationally, and at this time he really did intend to inflict serious, permanent damage. Frigga really should have recognized this and shaken Loki by the collar. I am not sure why Marvel chose to portray Frigga so passively here. She is a an objet d’art in this movie, which is unfair to her character.

· Loki fully intended to commit suicide when he let go of Odin’s spear, both bc of his perceived rejection by Odin and his internalized racism.

· Thor really does love his bro and showed amazing self restraint in not pulverizing him when they fight on the Bifrost, esp bc he has no idea why his little brother is acting like a psychopath.

· Thanos tortured Loki before sending him to earth (come on! look at that after credits scene with Selvig!).

· When Thor initially shows up in the first Avengers movie, he was totally ready to take Loki back to Asgard and give him All The Hugs.

· Loki would have taken All The Hugs had he not been scared shitless of Thanos.

· When Loki dropped Thor from the helicarrier and when he stabbed him, his aim was to incapacitate Thor not kill him. Loki never believed anything he did would cause more than minor injury Thor (c’mon—that tiny little dagger? That’s like an Asgardian mosquito bite; plus, he probably thought Thor would get stuck in that glass cage long enough to stay out of the way–I will never be convinced that Loki believed the fall would be fatal).

· Loki fully expected to lose the battle in NY and honestly figured being in jail on Asgard was the safest place to be.

· Odin is a dick.

· Loki really did get run through by Kurse’s blade trying to save his brother’s life. (and honestly this is the movie where I pinpoint his redemption arc, and I think that giving him a redemption arc in Ragnarok was redundant)

· Loki really did almost die.

· Loki disguised himself as Odin in order to hide from Thanos.

· A couple of years in a nursing home would in no way hasten Odin’s death nor did Loki intend it to, though I’m sure Loki took great delight in the seeing his all-powerful dick of a father reduced to being spoon fed by someone who used baby talk (“Open wide, Mr. Borson! We don’t want your tummy to get upset when we take our medicine!”).

· Thor is still not a dumb jock, but he is now capable of introspection and occasional outburts of humility. Jury’s still out on empathy, but I’m willing to be convinced.

2. Things in my head that I hope are true:

· That before Thanos showed up Loki and Thor at least talked about the fact that Loki took a big ass sword right through his sternum.

· That they really did hug.

· That Tony and Loki get shit-faced drunk together at some point and bitch about their shitty dads.

@foundlingmother–I’m not entirely sure I would call MCU Thor compassionate, because I think in order to feel compassion, one has to first be able to imagine what it’s like to be someone else, and as I said, I’m not entirely convinced Thor has developed much capacity for empathy. I’m thinking particularly in Ultron when Banner is traumatized over the destruction caused by the Hulk, and Thor goes all Viking warrior about the screams of the dead. Not so empathetic. (though, as I said, I am willing to be convinced if some one wants to take up that discussion).

I would say, however, that Thor has an incredibly strong senses of duty, honor, and obligation. That’s why he’s polite when he’s really supposed to be (hanging up Mjolnir when he goes to Jane’s apartment like the good boy his mother raised). That’s why he works so hard to save Asgard from Hela–it’s his duty. That’s why he finally gives in and agrees to be king–obligation.

I would also repeat that he really loves his brother, dammit, and no one can convince me otherwise. So I think you are absolutely correct, @lola-zwietbeste, there is no way Thor knew that Loki had been tortured when he dragged him back home in chains. And even though he was a dick, I don’t think Odin knew, either. Certainly they would both have felt honor bound to revenge Loki’s torture as a slight against family and realm, though it is bit odd that no one thought to do a little bit of forensic investigating. Again, Odin=dick.

@writernotwaiting not one single thing here I disagree with. So refreshing to see rationality in this fandom.

I agree with @writernotwaiting on virtually all of this, except for two minor points:

1. I do think that it is partially accurate to say that Loki was “bullied” by Thor and his friends. I base that claim entirely on things we actually see in the movie and in the “Never doubt that I love you” deleted scene that we all accept as canon (so nobody go off on me about it having been deleted). Nonetheless, I do not hate them or entirely blame them for this. Consult my explanations at the bottom of the threads here and here.

2. I think that throughout the movies before Ragnarok, Thor is working on developing… sympathy, if not empathy. He slips up every now and then; he doesn’t really get why someone would be distraught over having killed enemies, but he catches on when Steve and Tony signal that he’s saying the wrong things and tries to backtrack. There’s something a bit incongruous about expecting someone from a warrior culture like Asgard to feel compassion, to treat someone else’s suffering as one’s own. As ever, I find Nietzsche’s contrast between noble and slave values enlightening: compassion and the imperative to relieve suffering are very distinctive of slave morality; of course Thor is driven by honor and duty – and respect for those he regards as his peers (if not his equals), including the human Avengers. Respect involves being aware of someone’s feelings, taking them into account, but also holding the person to the standards you accept for yourself – which explains why Thor flips out on Tony about the Ultron situation.

Finally: as you know, because I’ve said it a lot, I don’t think the version of Thor we see in Ragnarok, whom I call Thor* to mark the difference, is the same character as the Thor we see in Thor 1 through Age of Ultron. For that reason I think it’s misleading to try to track a development through Ragnarok and (to a lesser extent) Infinity War. It would be like trying to draw conclusions about the character of Thomas Jefferson from his depictions in 1776 and Hamilton (for the musical nerds out there…). The fact that different writers are involved isn’t necessarily prohibitive, because comics series can go through a number of different writers without losing continuity; it’s about whether the new writer respects the characterization that has been developed by previous writers and builds on it in a psychologically realistic way.

#mcu brodinson edit #fandom: marvel #gif #reminder that this is the first thing thor says to loki #and that’s why loki’s convinced that thor’s only here for the tesseract #no matter how much thor begs him to come home #it’s all just because he needs the tesseract #is what loki tells himself #like obviously we know thor loves loki and wants him to come home #but loki doesn’t know that #at all (via @foundlingmother)

Of course this is an irrational assumption, and we all know that. But Loki is (1) severely depressed, which leads him to believe that no one really loves him and to seize on any evidence that could be construed to support that belief; and (2) under severe pressure from Thanos to retrieve the Tesseract, which means he has to fight Thor, which means that he’s strongly motivated to find any reason he can to want to fight Thor.

illwynd:

foundlingmother:

illwynd:

foundlingmother:

philosopherking1887:

talxns:

i think about this a lot but how much better would thor 1 be if we got to see thor react to the fact that his beloved brother was a race that he grew up wanting to slaughter?? like was that not an important plot point?? THAT’S a better way for thor to realize that killing just to conquer is wrong, that’s how he should have realized the error of his ways, not just meeting mortals and wanting to protect them, but by hurting someone that he loved because of his arrogant ignorance and prejudice

@foundlingmother, I thought this might speak to you…

I love this for a couple reasons:

It makes Thor and Loki’s relationship the most important in the movie since it’s the relationship impacting Thor’s character arc, and that’s how it should be in a Thor movie.

The people Thor wants to conquer are Frost Giants, not humans. Asgard’s opinion of Midgard is in no way comparable to its opinion of Jotunheim. Learning how nice and cool humans are shouldn’t impact how he feels about Jotunheim. This is why I explain his change of heart in other ways.

The trouble is, I think a small change like, for instance, Thor noticing Loki turning blue when the Frost Giant touches him would change the plot entirely. If Thor had noticed that, he’d have grabbed Loki and noped the fuck out of the battle on Jotunheim. The conversation between him and Odin would have been entirely different. He probably wouldn’t have been banished, which means Loki wouldn’t have been regent.

There’s an interesting fanfic in that idea. (Obviously there are already works that have Thor find out Loki’s a Frost Giant and never get banished, but most of the ones I’ve read are pro-Odin, pro-Asgard, and anti-Jotunheim, and that’s just not my cup of tea.)

Oddly enough, I strongly disagree, because that change would make the movie *less* about their relationship and less compelling as a narrative. This isn’t to say I don’t want it to be addressed (wow, do I ever want a scene where they actually confront that particular revelation between them), but having that take place in Thor 1 would have dramatically weakened the story as a whole.

First, it wouldn’t make sense in terms of Thor’s character as it had been portrayed up till that point (and forward as well). This a character who is extremely kind and generous and good-hearted but also prone to taking too much for granted when things seem fine and whose arrogant streak makes him a bit blind to the perspectives of others. The growth that needs to occur in the first movie is not “learning that killing to conquer is wrong,” even though it takes place in that context. The way Thor needs to grow is to have his perspective get a shaking. He gets knocked down a peg, has to accept help from people he would have considered weaker, finds himself in a situation where all the things he counted on–his own position, his expected trajectory in life, the people he loved and trusted–are gone and he has to figure out who he is in this new situation and reevaluate the choices that got him there. He would not learn those lessons from finding out that Loki was an abandoned Jotun baby that Odin took in after the war. But moreover, the person Thor is at the beginning of the movie has not yet had the growth necessary to respond in any useful way to that revelation. The Thor who yells back at Odin that he’s a old fool for not waging preemptive war on Jotunheim for the vault incident would not have come quickly enough to the right understanding if he had seen Loki’s hand turn blue. He’d have suspected a trick or a curse (as Loki did also), and if those were disproved and he actually learned the truth at that point? Does anyone actually believe this would not have been disastrous? He’d have handled it so badly, and while there could certainly have been an interesting story there (quite a few fics’ worth), it would have very likely been an uglier one and one less focused on their brotherly relationship.

The reason the actual movie was in fact entirely focused on their relationship even though they spent half the movie not even on the same realm is that everything that happens to Thor–from deciding to go to Jotunheim to being banished to (nearly) dying at the hand of the Destroyer–was brought into motion by Loki, and we as the audience are aware of this but, crucially, Thor is not. It is their relationship playing out in shadows and reflections. We can see and understand Loki’s conflict and Loki’s resentment and Loki’s turmoil and the context for it. And at the same time we can see Thor’s growth as he deals with the shock of his changed circumstances. We can see Thor’s better traits shining through in his own trials. And we can see Thor’s blindness to what’s happening with Loki (and Loki’s awareness of Thor’s blindness) and how that mirrors the things that grew Loki’s resentment over the years. We’re able to see both of their stories unfolding at the same time and how completely connected these are even though they are not taking place in the same physical space. And then when they are in the same space–first, Loki visiting Thor on Midgard to lie to him, and then after Thor regains Mjolnir and returns to Asgard–we can watch as their relationship evolves as Thor grows and Loki cracks. Thor pleading with Loki, looking to him as a lifeline, as the most trusted person in Thor’s old life, and Loki turning him away because he can’t, things can’t go back to how they were, and Loki doesn’t trust Thor with this knowledge. And then Thor’s return, grown and changed and having to deal with knowing that something has gone very wrong with Loki but he lacks an understanding of what; in this he is still having to face the ripples of his old arrogance and ignorance, the problems that he had not even been aware of in his relationship with his brother.

And this conflict unfolding at this point, after Thor has had the shakeup of being banished, and after Loki has had time to dig himself well into a violent breakdown–Thor has had the necessary growth to deal with this situation better, but the stakes have gotten higher and the situation has gotten worse and all our hearts break because their goals are fundamentally in conflict so someone has to lose–and we have seen through both their eyes and we know how important their relationship is to both of them, so that means there can be no real winning, either.

I don’t think you’d get that same effect if you formulated the story so that it dealt with that relationship and Loki’s origins head-on.

If the story had been centered on Thor learning a lesson about not killing Jotnar because Loki was one, it would have been very likely to become an after-school special on prejudice.

Dealing with it obliquely, with their relationship reflected in and infused through everything that happens–that makes the story so much more.

I happen to agree with a lot of what you said @illwynd, which is why I specified that I think it would make for an interesting fic. I love the idea of Loki’s heritage being dealt with head-on, but I prefer for the sake of the overall relationship arc between Thor and Loki in the MCU that Thor retain its structure (not least because we have the option to explore these canon divergent AUs, but also diverge from canon in completely different ways at completely different points). That said, I’d still have preferred if they left in the scenes that hinted at Thor’s vulnerability. I think it helps to explain why three days in an insecure position is enough to sober Thor up sufficiently.

Yeah, I guessed that we were at least somewhat on the same page! I was mainly disagreeing with the idea expressed in the OP that Thor 1 would have been a better movie by dealing with that aspect explicitly, and I wanted to go into why I thought so, because there is a bit of a trend lately to discuss Thor 1 (and Avengers and TDW) in what are actually pretty inaccurate ways and I wanted to make sure to give adequate context.

If you mean the deleted scenes, yes, at least most of those I wish they had kept in as well! One of my favorite scenes in the whole damn thing is the deleted/extended version of Loki goading Thor into going to Jotunheim. There’s just so much going on in it, so much hinted history between them. 😀

After reading @illwynd‘s lovely essay above, I completely agree; I didn’t think it all the way through before sharing the original post. The fact that so much of the plot turns on incomplete information and misunderstandings can make it infuriating to watch but also very Shakespearean. Or Attic-tragedian, even. And I absolutely know what you mean about people discussing the previous movies in inaccurate ways: they’ve been reading the Ragnarok retconning of their characters back into previous movies – most notably, by portraying all of Loki’s actions as completely unmotivated and unintelligible, the way they’re framed in Ragnarok; claiming that everything he does, from letting the Jotnar in to disrupt Thor’s coronation to attempting to destroy Jotunheim, was done just because he’s “the god of mischief” and likes to fuck shit up for no reason.

The important thing about Thor’s banishment to Earth is that it represents the “high brought low” trope (an expression that my English prof pal @fuckyeahrichardiii taught me; a literary education is never complete). I came across a strange reblog chain once where people were describing Thor 1 as a case of “meeting the savages,” where Thor’s sojourn on Earth, among people he considered his racial inferiors, was supposed to teach him to respect the Jotnar… I think in general (sorry, @foundlingmother) that there’s been a bit too much reading present concerns about racism and colonialism into the Thor movies; Asgard is a premodern pagan society, and I suspect they really don’t think about other races and cultures the way we do now. It used to be completely normal to utterly crush your enemies (hence the thing in the Old Testament about eradicating the Amalekites, down to their sheep and cattle) and even make their land uninhabitable so they wouldn’t be able to rise up and pose a threat any time soon (hence the custom of sowing fields with salt, as the Romans did to the Carthaginians). Not that any of this is good, just that it seems a little strange to me to approach Asgard with modern critiques of colonialism, which presuppose that the conquerors themselves espouse a basically Christian, post-Enlightenment moral worldview.

The point of Thor’s banishment, from Odin’s POV as well as that of the film, was to humble him by making him helpless and forcing him to rely on the hospitality of others (and so much the better if they’re weaker and beneath him in station!), not to teach him respect for other cultures (clearly, as we see in TDW, Odin doesn’t care about that). Thor’s practical humility, so to speak, does come along with a measure of epistemic humility: he learns to question the things he used to take for granted, to question his own perspective, and therefore to give more consideration to the perspectives of others. Importantly, he learns to question what he’d always believed (indeed, been taught by Odin to believe) about his own worth relative to others, including Midgardians, Loki, and (to some degree) Frost Giants.

I thought this part of illwynd’s commentary was especially insightful (and heartbreaking):

And then when they are in the same space – first, Loki visiting Thor on Midgard to lie to him, and then after Thor regains Mjolnir and returns to Asgard – we can watch as their relationship evolves as Thor grows and Loki cracks. Thor pleading with Loki, looking to him as a lifeline, as the most trusted person in Thor’s old life, and Loki turning him away because he can’t, things can’t go back to how they were, and Loki doesn’t trust Thor with this knowledge. And then Thor’s return, grown and changed and having to deal with knowing that something has gone very wrong with Loki but he lacks an understanding of what; in this he is still having to face the ripples of his old arrogance and ignorance, the problems that he had not even been aware of in his relationship with his brother.

What’s so heartbreaking is that Loki, at this point, has no reason to trust Thor with the terrible secret of his birth, no reason to trust that he’s changed and become more open-minded and sensitive to Loki’s feelings and perspective. I’ve remarked before on how Thor’s apology to Loki after he sends the Destroyer to Midgard – “Brother, whatever I have done to wrong you, whatever I have done to lead you to do this, I am truly sorry” – is kind of a non-apology, because it’s hard to truly repent (which is to say, rethink, reevaluate) something you don’t know you did. So you can’t entirely blame Loki for not trusting that apology or taking it seriously; but at this point you also can’t entirely blame newly matured Thor for not knowing what immature arrogant Thor did, because immature Thor was too blind and self-centered to really be aware of the ways he was neglecting and belittling Loki and how much it hurt him, and mature Thor doesn’t really have any more information, just a new willingness to listen. So their confrontation has the kind of inevitability you want from a good Shakespearean tragedy: just one little bit of information shared at the right time could avert the whole thing (I’ve even written some little AU vignettes along those lines), but the urgency of the situation and the heightened emotions means there’s no real opportunity for that information to be exchanged.

Definitely planning to write fic where Thor and Loki actually discuss the Jotun heritage thing… but set after Thor’s long trajectory of maturation (and ignoring TR’s reversal of that trajectory, while accepting the broad outlines of the plot as canon).

shine-of-asgard:

juliabohemian:

apocalypticwafflekitten:

lucianalight:

juliabohemian:

lasimo74allmyworld:

mosellegreen:

ameliawilliams:

You think you could make Loki tell us where the Tesseract is?

Shit I hate it when I notice new things about these movies.

We’ve covered how conceited it is of Thor to assume, incorrectly, that this is about him. But what else can we expect from this spoiled brat.

And we’ve covered that this is Fury proposing torture. Asking a man to torture his own brother. Anyone who still thinks Fury is one of the good guys… he’s not.

But Thor says “There’s no pain would prise his need from him.”

Thor knows that pain won’t make Loki knuckle under.

Which means he must have tried it. Before Loki was officially designated a villain. When he was just the younger prince of Asgard, Thor’s loyal brother and comrade in arms.

Thor knows that torture won’t work on Loki from experience.

Shit. Did they think about what they were putting in these fucking movies at all?

The more we analyse the movies, the more we discover that the bad guys are the ones with shining armour and boosted egos.

Really, the painful truth I read above breaks my heart.

I also think it’s interesting that Thor assumes Loki coming to Earth is about him. It had nothing to do with Thor at all, but Thor never finds that out. Here’s hoping Infinity War will bring some shit to light, but I’m not holding my breath.

Also the thought that Thor knows Loki has an incredibly high pain tolerance kind of makes me cringe.

“Which means he must have tried it. Before Loki was officially designated a villain. When he was just the younger prince of Asgard, Thor’s loyal brother and comrade in arms.

Thor knows that torture won’t work on Loki from experience.”

Before TR I would never believe that Thor would ever torture Loki, or put him through any kind of serious pain. So what I understood from Thor’s line in Avengers was that Thor had seen Loki going through torture and didn’t break. Not that he had done it himself. I mean they are princes, any kind of voilence could have happened by their enemys. But damn TR and that scene with obedience disk makes me question everything now.

@mosellegreen

@lasimo74allmyworld

@juliabohemian

@lucianalight

Alrighty. I know I’m late, but upon coming across this, have things to say. Don’t know if you’re going to like or agree with them, but here we go.

Im not going to get into Thor’s vanity, because that’s a topic for another time, but here we go on Loki and abuse:

I can NEVER belive that Thor would EVER torture Loki. He wouldn’t abuse him, or experiment on him because he loves his brother. I mean, look at the ENTIRE elevator scene in Ragnarok. Thor literally says in a morose, and reminiscent voice: “I thought the world of you. I thought we’re were always going to fight side by side.” (Something along those lines. Sorry if the quote isn’t correct.)Personally, I would never beat anyone if I thought the world of them. I wouldn’t wish to fight by their side if I hated them enough to beat them.

And it goes back to before then even. Look at TDW. The scene where Thor is asking for Loki’s help? He states that he used to belive that there was a glimmer of goodness and redeemability in Loki.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS?!?!!??!? It means that he wanted to save his brother! If youre abusing someone, why would you wish to save them?

Granted, he does say that that is/was gone, but we never see him abuse or beat Loki after that. And then theres all the other things Loki did for Thor in that move.

He agreed to help him in the first

Saved/Protected Jane.

Twice

Didn’t actually betray him at all until he “died”

And, my personal favorite

LEFT THOR WITH THE THOUGHT THAT HIS FATHER WAS ACTUALLY A GOOD FATHER BY TELLING HIM SOMETHING KIND AND DEEP. SOMETHINGBHE NEEDED TO HEAR SO THE HE DIDNT ABSOLUTELY HATE HIS FATHER; HIS IDOL SINCE HE WAS A SMOL LIGHTNING BOLT WHILE DISGUISED AS ODIN

You don’t do things like that for people you hate.

Then there the first Thor movie. Did you see any of the scenes before it was revealed to Loki what his heritage was? The two were close. Look at the deleted scenes. Loki says something similar to: “I admit that there have been times when I was envious, but never doubt that I love you.” Why would Loki say he loves Thor if his brother abused him? I hear y’all saying “Well it could be a show!” “He’s faking!” “Thor threatened him!” But look at the deleted scene mentioned earlier in this paragraph. The two are completely alone. Loki is smiling, and it’s genuine. There are creases by his eyes from his cheeks lifting. (That’s the physical cue that a smile is genuine) Loki’s body language in that scene doesn’t show any sort of discomfort or fear. He’s comfortable around his brother.

And then there were the scenes in Jotunheim in the first Thor. Loki is insistant that they go home (and that they not go at all, calling it suicide)because he doesn’t want to see his brother or ever his brother’s friends hurt or worse.

Oh, and this little gem: “I love Thor more dearly than any of you.”

If you look at the body language of someone whose been beaten while they’re around the person they are beaten by, you’ll see slouched shoulders, a tense body, constant glances to anywhere but their abusers face, clammy hands, hands in pockets (a cue that the person is trying to hide something) and just a general feel of unease and unrest. Fear and terror.

You see NONE of that body language when Loki and Thor are together. Look at Ragnarok. They’re fighting together to end Hella. They don’t hate each other. Loki isn’t afraid of Thor. He’s just so used to being in Thor’s shadow and he’s sick of it. He wants to be recognized.

When the two are alone at the end of Ragnarok, you don’t see Loki tense, or avoiding eye contant. He’s looking strait at Thor withought any glint of fear.

He’s comfortable.

Oh, and the line “I’m Here.”

And “Maybe you’re not so bad.”

Im gonna bring up a thought now.

They. Are. Norse. Gods. And. Brothers.

That means battles, and fighting side by side. Seeing each other take hits and blows, stabs and cuts. Seeing them push themselves to their limits. Thor knows that Loki won’t stop no matter the pain because he’s seen it in his brother in battle. He’s seen that fight in Loki’s eyes. He knows his brother’s ambitious nature.

“So how does Thor know that pain won’t stop Loki?” I hear you ask.

Well my friends. All you have to do is look at the ending of the first Thor film.

Loki is hellbent on destroying Jotumheim. So hellbent that he would fight his own brother to do it. Sure, Loki was angered and confused because of what he had recently learned, and he didn’t belive Thor to be his brother, but it had to hurt to fight his brother. I mean, it would hurt me to fight my brother.

At this point, Loki has discarded pain for his ambition and let it consume him. He didn’t care that he had to fight Thor. He didn’t care that destroying Jotunheim would have awful reprocussions. He just wanted to prove himself to someone, *cough cough* his father *cough*

And at the end you see Loki showing that he care for Thor. When Thor is destroying the Bifrost Loki yells at him: “But if you destroy the Bifrost you’ll never see her again!!!”

I don’t know about you, but to me, that screams that Loki cares about Thor’s wellbeing and interests. He cares about his brother’s happiness despite feeling estranged and ostracized because of what he is.

That’s not typically seen in someone who is abused. The care for their abusers wellbeing.

So no. I don’t think Thor would ever abuse Loki. They’re too close. They’ve been through too much together. Thor does NOT deserve that kind of belittlement. He has fought to save and protect his little brother since the beginning, and that ain’t gonna change.

@

apocalypticwafflekitten

Let me just preface this by saying that I have studied psychology, child development and trauma/abuse recovery at great length and for many years. I don’t usually bother responding to posts like this, simply because I don’t have the time, but given that your argument is based on some disturbingly false premises, I feel like I owe it to other Loki fans to construct a reply. You seem very young and sweet, so I’m going to do my best to be kind.

Tagging a few peeps here to see if they would like to chime in: @mosellegreen @lasimo74allmyworld @lucianalight @lokiloveforever

“I can NEVER believe that Thor would EVER torture Loki.”

I LIKE Thor and I have zero trouble believing this at all. Thor left Loki being electrocuted by the obedience disk. Thor had no idea how long Loki would lie there, or how much he could withstand. He didn’t know if Loki would be rescued, or if he’d be found by someone who was going to simply execute him…and they were on a planet where people were executed regularly (and painfully) for ridiculous reasons. In fact, Thor witnessed an execution, so he knew this for sure. And Thor didn’t JUST leave Loki there, he did so gleefully. So even if his comment to Nick Fury about knowing how much pain Loki can withstand doesn’t mean anything, the scene in Ragnarok leaves very little to the imagination.

“And it goes back to before then even. Look at TDW. The scene where Thor is asking for Loki’s help? He states that he used to belive that there was a glimmer of goodness and redeemability in Loki.”

The thing is, this is actually an awful thing to say. Like many of Thor’s comments towards Loki, it’s an insult disguised as a compliment. Thor has a lot of balls asking for help at that moment, in the first place. Loki does it because he loves his mother and wants to avenge her. The problem is that you are interpreting this from the POV that Loki is a villain who needs to be redeemed, instead of someone who has feelings and motives for his behavior, just like Thor.

Interestingly enough, I’ve noticed that people who tend to defend Thor’s actions are people who share the view that he and Loki are not actually equals.

“DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS?!?!!??!? It means that he wanted to save his brother! If youre abusing someone, why would you wish to save them…You don’t do things like that for people you hate.”

First of all, no one has said that Loki hates Thor. For the record, I don’t think that Thor hates Loki either. Abuse victims don’t usually hate their abusers. In fact, many would openly claim to love them. Abuse victims also absolutely do defend their abusers, do things for their abusers and feel loyal and/or indebted to their abusers. It’s actually more common for abuse victims to feel this way, than not. That’s pretty textbook. Extreme versions of this are known as Stockholm Syndrome.

Loki is consistently desperate for Thor’s approval and validation, as well as that of his father’s. He even says as much. “All I ever wanted was to be your equal…” Loki’s motives can be summed up, almost entirely by that quote alone. He tries to kill himself when he realizes that his dad isn’t going to give him that approval. Let’s take a moment to recognize what a devastating act that is. It’s not the sort of thing someone does when they are secure in their position in their family. That’s the act of a desperate person, who just wants to put themselves out of their misery.

Did you see any of the scenes before it was revealed to Loki what his heritage was? The two were close. Look at the deleted scenes. Loki says something similar to: “I admit that there have been times when I was envious, but never doubt that I love you.”

Yes, I have seen all of them, many times. Loki says he loves Thor and Thor says…thank you. That’s got to be the absolute worst response a person can offer to someone who is telling them that they love them. And once again…abuse victims tell their abusers that they love them all the time. It’s very, very common. Abusers also withhold love and affection in order to control their victims. They might -for instance- refuse to say the words I love you, even when those words are said to them.

“Well it could be a show!” “He’s faking!”

No, it’s not a show. Loki believes what he is saying when he tells Thor that he loves him. He is sincere. Loki loves Thor, whatever that means for Loki. He doesn’t need to be faking for it to be evidence of an unhealthy relationship. It is possible for someone to be a victim of emotional abuse and to feel like they love someone or to feel that they are happy in their relationship. They can laugh and smile and hug and even make love to their significant other, because they are not aware of the dysfunction they are living in. Because of that dysfunction, their perception of what it means to love someone is skewed and disordered.

“If you look at the body language of someone whose been beaten while they’re around the person they are beaten by, you’ll see slouched shoulders, a tense body, constant glances to anywhere but their abusers face, clammy hands, hands in pockets (a cue that the person is trying to hide something) and just a general feel of unease and unrest. Fear and terror.”

I mean no disrespect when I say this, but you either have no firsthand knowledge whatsoever of what an abusive relationship is like OR you are in one and are deep in denial about it.

I say this as someone who has worked with many people who recovering from various types of abuse. Loki’s body language towards Thor is fairly consistent with someone who feels inferior and who is desperate for approval. When Loki is not in Thor’s presence, he actually stands taller and speaks more confidently. And I recognize that such a thing doesn’t necessarily imply physical abuse, but it definitely implies emotional abuse. It implies a disparity in their relationship that isn’t healthy.

And “Maybe you’re not so bad.”

Oh my, this is another terrible thing to say. It’s another insult, disguised as a compliment. Who said he was bad in the first place? This, once again, comes from the premise that Loki is someone who needs to be redeemed and Thor is not.

“I don’t know about you, but to me, that screams that Loki cares about Thor’s wellbeing and interests. He cares about his brother’s happiness despite feeling estranged and ostracized because of what he is.That’s not typically seen in someone who is abused. The care for their abusers wellbeing.“

I have no doubt that Loki cares for Thor, because we have seen plenty of evidence of that. I believe that Thor only cares for Loki conditionally. Thor loves Loki as long as Loki is the person Thor thinks he should be, but he doesn’t really seem to KNOW Loki at all. I find it tragic that Loki has become okay with this. I had hoped that Ragnarok would end with Thor apologizing for not trying harder to understand his brother. Instead, Loki has embraced that he will never be understood and that the only way he’s doing to have Thor in his life is to accept that he will never be regarded as an equal.

Thor’s attitude towards his brother is evident with lines like “know your place” and “your imagined slights.” Thor does not see Loki as his equal, so in his mind it is totally reasonable for him to disregard Loki’s feelings. This is not entirely his fault. He was raised to see himself as better, as superior. Loki appears to know, even before his Jotun origins are revealed, that he is somehow less than his brother. This is not a perception that comes out of thin air.

Let me rephrase that -Loki’s slights are not “imagined” simply because the protagonist says they are. This is a common mistake people make when digesting fiction. They accept the hero or good guy’s POV as reality, instead of what it is…that one person’s POV. This is especially evident when you have characters who are larger than life like Captain America or Han Solo or Harry Potter.

What’s amusing is…Loki cares openly about Thor’s feelings. He acknowledge’s Thor’s loss when Frigga dies, and again when Odin dies. He even pats him on the back when he is reminded that Jane broke up with him. These are the actions of someone who has accepted that his feelings do not matter, but the other party’s do. This is actually a very common dynamic in abusive or codependent relationships.

You mention Thor’s line in Ragnarok. “I thought the world of you. I thought we’re were always going to fight side by side.”

Except that…we’ve seen zero evidence that Thor EVER thought the world of Loki. We’ve seen plenty of evidence that Loki thinks the world of Thor. Granted he says some negative things about him too -but he does so bitterly. Thor treats his brother as a pest in the original film. He talks down to him almost consistently, throughout all 4 films they are in together. In Avengers, Thor doesn’t even ask what Loki is doing on Earth or suspect something might be wrong (he’s suddenly trying to invade a planet he previously had no interest in). Thor makes one brief attempt to appeal to Loki, but it’s only so he can put an end to the battle and cart him off to prison. He shows no interest in finding out why Loki did what he did and we learn in TDW that Thor doesn’t even visit Loki in prison.

“Personally, I would never beat anyone if I thought the world of them.”

I believe you! I wouldn’t be able to beat anyone, even if I couldn’t stand them, but since these characters are not based on you or me, that’s not really useful information.

Do I know for sure that Thor has tortured Loki? Outside of the scene in Ragnarok, no. But do I think he’s capable of it? Absolutely. And that’s all this post is really about…whether Thor is capable of such thing. I’m amused that people are threatened by that notion. It’s almost as though they think that Thor’s motives are all good, simply because he has been cast as the hero.

Do I think Thor is a terrible person? No. He’s a character that is flawed, just like all the other Marvel characters. Thor is a product of his childhood and his family, just like Loki. They were both set against one another from the get go. They are both flawed and deeply messed up and that’s what makes them interesting.

Here’s the thing, though. While I believe there is evidence to support the fact that Loki’s relationship with Thor is imbalanced and dysfunctional…I don’t think it was the intention of the MCU writers to portray it as such. I think it’s just poor and inconsistent writing. I think it’s also a result of the fact that comic style writers tend to subscribe to the notion that anything the hero does is okay, simply because they are the hero and anything the villain does is not okay, simply because they are the villain. Which is a shame, but we take what we can get.

@juliabohemian Thank you for the in depth and lovely meta. It certainly puts many things into perspective. Sadly, I agree that such a rich interpretation wasn’t intentional and came about through a combination of cliched writing and Tom Hiddelston’s method acting, which is why we will see no acknowledgement of these issues and no resolution on screen. But it’s still important that the audience interpret what’s onscreen critically, and this includes judging the heroes by their deeds and not by their words.

I also appreciate @juliabohemian‘s meta, because it very neatly punctured the idea that the points the previous reblogger (not tagging because I don’t want to get into it with them) raises are evidence against abuse. It’s actually kind of hilarious how bad an argument it is for the intended conclusion, especially considering that some of the evidence offered (Thor’s claims that Loki “still has some good” in him or “isn’t so bad”) is actually evidence for the exact opposite.

That said… I absolutely did not draw the conclusion @mosellegreen did from that line in The Avengers. I think we were supposed to think, as @lucianalight suggested, that Thor knows Loki can hold up under torture because of experience with their common enemies during one of the many campaigns they’ve fought in together. And even after Ragnarok, I still think that, because I do not consider it legitimate to read Thor’s character as presented in Ragnarok back into the earlier movies. It’s so different, so discontinuous, that it provides absolutely no insight into his character in the other movies. The Thor of TR gleefully inflicts pain on his brother to “teach him a lesson”; the Thor of the earlier movies would not do that.

Yes, Thor probably “beat up on” little brother Loki in the way that siblings do, and Loki probably gave as good as he got, both in physical fights and in obnoxious pranks. (Forget the story about Loki “trying to kill” Thor by stabbing him when they were 8… that makes no damn sense for a lot of reasons. If Loki stabbed Thor with anything, it was probably the equivalent of a pair of scissors.) If their relationship was “abusive” in Thor 1 and before, it was just a matter of Thor being one of the “cool kids” who dismisses and sometimes bullies his tag-along uncool little brother… and of accepting the superiority that Odin has convinced both him and Loki that he (Thor) possesses. But that, I think, is better described as a situation where both Thor and Loki are victims of Odin’s crappy parenting, albeit in different ways (which seems to be the conclusion @juliabohemian reaches as well). I’m definitely bothered by the ways in which Thor shows, pre-TR, that he doesn’t care about Loki’s feelings (dismissing him, not asking him WTF happened in the year he was gone, assuming invading Midgard was All About Him, not visiting him in prison…), but I can accept that because Thor 1 acknowledges that its hero is flawed, and both that movie and The Avengers show him as improving but still a work in progress. He is getting better in TDW, and their brotherly dynamic is kind of adorable; he still says some pretty cringe-y things, but you can also see genuine respect and affection there. TR just ignores and/or reverses all the growth we’ve seen in Thor’s character and presents him as a self-absorbed, manipulative asshole who’s willing to punish and “train” Loki with severe pain while smiling smugly and speechifying at him, and then blithely leave him vulnerable in a hostile world, because he just kind of doesn’t care how anyone else feels or even, apparently, regard Loki as a full person.

foundlingmother:

illwynd:

raven-brings-light:

foundlingmother:

raven-brings-light:

foundlingmother:

icyxmischief:

hela:

What would you like me to say?

Isn’t it great how later in this movie Thor accuses Loki of never wanting to move forward and communicate but right here when he tries, earnestly, to do so, Thor shuts him down. Isn’t that great.

Isn’t it great how people talk about this scene like Loki’s just goading Thor and not being genuine? Isn’t that just great? I mean, he’s actually:

Loki: It hurts, doesn’t it? Being lied
to. Being told you’re one thing and
then learning it’s all a fiction.

Attempting to begin a conversation about the numerous lies their father told them. One lie in particular. The big one. The lie Thor has yet to condemn Odin for.

Loki: Look, I couldn’t jeopardize my
position with Grandmaster, it took
me time to win his trust. He’s a
lunatic, but he can be amenable.

Providing Thor with a very reasonable explanation for why he couldn’t help him.

Loki: Does this mean you don’t want my
help?

Loki: What I’m telling you is, you could
join me at the Grandmaster’s side.

Offering to help Thor get on the Grandmaster’s good side.

Loki: Perhaps, in time, an accident
befalls the Grandmaster, and
then…

Loki gestures: “we take over.”

Letting Thor in on his plan to take over Sakaar.

Loki: You’re not seriously thinking of
going back, are you? Our sister
destroyed your hammer like a piece
of glass. She’s stronger than both
of us. She’s stronger than you.
You don’t stand a chance. Do you
understand what I’m saying to you?

Expressing concern for Thor’s life. Openly worrying about Thor returning to fight Hela.

And then, only once Thor’s ignored all of that and thrown pebbles at him the whole time, spouting bullshit about going in alone, trying to goad Thor into saying something. And when that doesn’t work, rather than continuing to goad, he demands Thor say something, uncharacteristically revealing just how much it’s bugging him that Thor has said nothing.

So… I guess that means Thor is 100% right, and he’s the only brother who really wants to repair their relationship. I mean, it’s not possible for the hero to be at all flawed, short-sighted, consumed by grief, and assigning blame to people who don’t deserve it in this circumstance. Characters with realistic reactions to grief? What’s that? Sounds made up. No, Thor’s the good guy, and that means every word out of his mouth is gospel. (Norse Jesus.)

I would love this scene if it heralded character development, but instead it’s just there, making Loki out to be wrong even when he’s being calm, reasonable, and vulnerable with Thor, and contradicting scenes that come later. Oh, and teasing us with an actual conversation about the family drama, which the movie never delivers.

I read this scene differently when I saw it. I didn’t see it as Loki being wrong and Thor being right, but about their flawed relationship.

Yes, Loki is being relatively calm, reasonable, and vulnerable for the first part of the conversation. But From Thor’s point of view, he’s basically had no time to talk to Loki in years – first Loki lied to him for no ostensibly good reason and then and tried to kill him and then himself (thor 1), then Loki tried to take over Earth (avengers), then Loki managed to cheat death but instead of telling Thor about it he let him grieve AGAIN and he hid and banished Odin (and, in Thor’s mind, was instrumental in his death). Also, Loki has had weeks here in Sakaar coming to terms with the latest turn of events, but for Thor it’s been less than a day since he both got Loki back and lost his father. So, yes, Loki is momentarily pretending all that other stuff didn’t happen and is being nice RIGHT NOW but Thor is not in the mood to particularly give a shit or to be nice himself, and honestly if I were in his place I’d probably react the same way – no matter HOW earnest Loki was being in the first part of the conversation, which he was.

I did like this scene, because it showed how much Loki still cares about what Thor thinks of him, and because it showed that Thor *isn’t* perfect.

Basically, these two just need to be locked in a room together and not allowed out until they vent all their aggression and then actually TALK about everything that’s happened since Thor’s failed coronation. (and then hug it out)

Tl;Dr Thor isn’t perfect, he’s pissed.

I agree with everything you said @raven-brings-light. That’s why I would have liked this scene if they movie had readdressed it. Of course Thor’s not in the mood. This, to me, seems like a completely normal reaction for Thor to have given everything that’s happened. I guess it might have been lost somewhat in my snark, but that’s what I meant when I mentioned consumed by grief. This wasn’t a criticism of Thor.

My issue is with the movie, not Thor. I love a flawed Thor. Flawed heroes are my jam. It’s the movie that never says “Remember when Thor blamed Loki for Odin’s death and Hela’s return in that one scene? He was grieving then. Loki’s not really responsible for that.” It’s the movie that suggests Thor and Loki’s relationship problems are primarily perpetuated by Loki’s character flaws (which certainly play a role, don’t get me wrong), rather than something they’re both responsible for, both because of their actions and failures to communicate with one another.

The scene itself is great from the standpoint that it’s actually as close as we get to showing the nuance of their relationship. It’s letdown by the rest of the movie, which fails to reexamine Thor’s flaws, and thus tricks members of the audience into overlooking them. As I mentioned, I usually see this scene discussed as Thor doing the right thing by ignoring a Loki that’s just needling/goading him, when it seemed so obvious to me that wasn’t what happened.

So I was thinking about this in the car just now, and actually the more I think about it, I don’t even know if Thor approached this the wrong way at all.

Loki’s initial *words* are truthful, yes, but I don’t believe he’s offering them in the spirit of reconciliation. I think he’s been hanging on by the skin of his teeth in this hellhole, and when Thor showed up he breathed a sigh of relief – THANK GOD, THOR CAN HELP GET ME OUT OF THIS MESS. So he’s being “nice” in order to get Thor to work with him to get them (and by extension, HIM) out of hot water.

And Thor IS pissed, and sees it for what it is, a cheap play to his emotions. And when he stays silent, Loki DOES start goading/needling, because being ignored is what he hates more than ANYTHING ELSE.

(btw all of this should all be read in a tone of friendly discussion! I just like to hash things out! no personal animosity here!)

Yeah idk, I don’t think I wholly agree with that take on it, but honestly this movie is such a mess for anything to do with Thor and Loki’s characterization and particularly their relationship with each other that all we can do is extrapolate and try to make sense of things that don’t make sense in the film. But given the fact that Loki’s first words to Thor when they meet on Sakaar are a legitimately surprised “you’re alive?!” yes, I can agree with the notion that Loki has been hanging on, hating this place but trapped there, and now he’s got his hopes pinned on Thor. But I don’t see his words as insincere in the way I think you mean it? Like, he knows Thor is pissed at him for ALL THE THINGS and… it would be humiliating, in the face of that, to express what he’s actually feeling–the desperation for Thor’s company and good opinion after so long, the relief that the person he cares about most in the universe is not actually dead, the ancient impulse to stick by Thor like glue–so he’s playing it cool, feeling out the situation so if Thor rebuffs him he can try something else without having completely shown his hand.

And I don’t blame Thor for not letting Loki off the hook that easily. Thor is quite reasonably upset, and eagerly going along with Loki’s plan, showing a willingness to reconcile… would have sure made Loki feel better in the moment but it wouldn’t have done Thor much good, and it wouldn’t have really helped get to the root of their issues either. So yeah I’m not blaming Thor at all for his reactions here.

Personally, my issue with it is that the movie utterly drops the ball after this point and basically forgets this interaction, ignores what their issues are, and instead slots in whatever is needed to make the characters do what the plot requires, no matter how inconsistent or out of the blue it is. So we never actually get to know how this would play out between them because it, well, doesn’t. And consequently, it leaves this scene feeling incomplete and unsatisfying in retrospect.

^^^^^^^^^^

Thanks @illwynd. I think you communicated pretty much my thoughts much better than I did.

When I say Thor has character flaws, it’s more in the sense that he isn’t Norse Jesus, forgiving and Good™ the way I sometimes see fandom talking about him. I think Thor doesn’t always have to be the one reaching out, willing to forgive, being nothing but nice to a cruel, impossible to talk to Loki in all their interactions, for him to be the good guy. Yet, I see their interactions reduced a lot to Thor doing the right/good thing and Loki doing the wrong/bad thing, including this one. My snark was directed at that, and the point of my post was to look at Loki’s lines in the first part of this scene, and point out that most of them are genuine attempts to reach out to Thor, not goading. It’s ok for Loki to reach out once in a while. He can still be a bad guy (or morally ambiguous, if you prefer, which I do).

I think what you said about Thor, how it wouldn’t have done him any good, is quite insightful. Reconciliation needs to happen on both their terms, not on Loki or Thor’s terms. The reconciliation attempt made by Thor in the beginning of Avengers is a great example of one offered on Thor’s terms. He asks Loki to come home, but he doesn’t acknowledge why Loki… left, and even calls Loki’s slights imagined. Here, all the power is reversed. It’s Loki saying “Go along with my plan, Thor. Let’s talk about the lie Odin told me, Thor.” Genuine, but only on Loki’s terms, and now Loki’s ready.

I am in complete agreement with @foundlingmother and @illwynd on this, including the fact that the movie failed to acknowledge that Loki was the one holding out an olive branch here—not very graciously, to be sure—and Thor swatted it down. If Thor gets credit for reaching out to Loki in the scene from The Avengers where he uses the phrase “imagined slights,” Loki should get credit for this. Which is not to say that I blame Thor for turning him down—any more than I blame Loki for turning Thor down in The Avengers.

@raven-brings-light, what did you see as a cheap play to Thor’s emotions? I don’t think that’s what the “It hurts, doesn’t it? Being lied to” line was. I think that was Loki trying—again, very ungraciously—to get Thor to acknowledge the wrongs that had been done to Loki.

we saw a little of what thor and loki were like as children in the thor movie, any more thoughts on what their personalities might have been like (in the mcu canon, that is)

We have very little to go on, canonically; there’s just the one scene with Odin in the vault. From that, I think, we’re supposed to gather that child!Thor was confident, rambunctious, and belligerent, while child!Loki was more hesitant and anxious – and especially anxious to keep up with his big brother and gain his father’s approval. This is all very much in keeping with the way Thor and Loki are portrayed as young adults early in the first Thor movie; I think we’re supposed to see the seeds of their adult characteristics in their behavior as children.

I also have some headcanons about Thor and Loki as children, one of which I put into my Thor/Loki fic Starting Over (there’s nothing sexual or romantic in this passage, though, so it’s safe for non-shippers):

Loki had been sensitive as a child, prone to cry at what others might consider small hurts or slights or disappointments. When he had grown old enough to join the other noble children of the palace at play, they mocked him for it, called him weak, babyish, womanish, unmanly. Even before adolescence, Loki had learned to keep his tears—and along with them, it seemed, his genuine smiles—to himself. Thor had grown up to be free with his emotions, to weep unabashedly for fallen comrades or lost loves, even at a bard’s haunting rendition of a tragic tale. But Loki never unlearned the lesson that vulnerability was weakness, that tears were a source of shame. He wept in the presence of others only when his anguish was so great that he could not hold it back, and even then would try to hide his tears, to turn aside or cover his face or find a way to escape.

So when Thor saw Loki crying openly, he felt like a child again, watching his little brother fall and skin his knee when their mother was not there to dry his tears and kiss it better. Loki’s wounds were too deep to salve with such simple comfort, but Thor could think of nothing to do but to fold his brother in his arms and let Loki cry on his shoulder.

That’s meant to account for the fact that Loki often seems to be on the edge of tears, but only spills over in moments of real crisis/confrontation, and that he’s basically a volcano of bottled-up emotions (resentment, jealousy, self-doubt, self-loathing) that erupts into full-fledged psychosis with the disastrous revelations of the first Thor film. I mean, Thor has some anger management problems, which is only to be expected in a patriarchal warrior culture, but otherwise seems to have a reasonably healthy relationship with his emotions. Loki is a poster child for long-term untreated mental illness.

thorkizilla:

Do you know what’s another moment I loved about this movie? When Loki makes his grand YOUR SAVIOR IS HERE! entrance, this is Thor’s reaction:

He’s delighted to see that dramatic little shit!

It complements the moment that comes not too much later, when Thor finds his lightning powers again and comes raining lightning down on the bridge, Loki does this absolute fucking smirk:

THEY ARE SO DELIGHTED BY EACH OTHER.

After all the years we had to struggle our way through the breaking of their relationship, the losses they both suffered, the cracks to both their foundations, the bitterness and strife that kept wedging itself in between them, literal years of watching them break apart and break apart and break apart.

And this movie could have broken them for good. But instead it understood that they cannot go backwards, but that does not mean they cannot still go forward. That they can’t both be grow and change and find each other again.

The death of the last of their family might have split them apart, it almost did, but when it really came down to it, they both chose to move on, to be something more, and that allowed them to come back together.

It allowed them to smile when they saw each other again, genuine and real. After all that hurt–when Loki shows up again, their first reaction to the sight of the other is one of being glad to see the other, both of them.

thorkizilla:

I HAVE BEEN FLAILING AT LENGTH ABOUT LOKI’S CHARACTER ARC IN THIS MOVIE AND POOR @5ummit HAS HAD TO LISTEN TO ME GO ON AND NOW IT’S EVERYONE ELSE’S TURN.

“You’re late.”
“You’re missing an eye.”

I am just so delighted by how the introduction of Hela into the family shook things out of their rut and how it made everything that happened before feel necessary. Like, I think TDW was necessary because Loki needed that time to work through being the worst villain the family, the black sheep, to wallow in it to realize that it actually wasn’t satisfying at all. He had his time being WOE IS ME, he had his time being king of Asgard, and none of it really satisfied him. So, when shit goes sideways as it always does, when he went back to trying to betray Thor, it felt hollow, because Thor had accepted that that was a choice he might make, that Thor wasn’t bothered by it.

And then there’s Hela. Who takes the place of the worst Odinkid and Loki cannot really define himself by that role anymore, he’ll never be THE WORST after this. Instead, he’s somewhere in the middle. And I love that the movie seemed really aware of the gamut of this family, that Hela was on the far end of just deliciously, wonderfully violent and cruel, Thor was on the other end of how he had come through the fire and stayed good. And that these two children were each half of Odin, that he was a conqueror, but he was also a father who loved, that they’re the two sides of him. And Loki is that middle ground as well, he doesn’t have to be the best at being good, he doesn’t have to be the best at being evil, his siblings have that covered.

He can be something else, something more.

That’s why I loved that line so very much. It’s frustrating to want it to be more serious (but, then, wasn’t TDW serious enough for all of us?) but I think it kind of worked for me, in that Thor felt like he had really made peace with everything. It felt like Thor had MOVED ON and that’s what REALLY got to Loki.

Tom even says it in an interview:

So the idea that Thor might be indifferent to Loki is troubling for him, because that’s a defining feature of who his character is. I don’t belong in the family; my brother doesn’t love me; I hate my brother. The idea that his brother’s like, “Yeah, whatever,” it’s an interesting development. But the two of them, that’s what I kind of loved about Ragnarok when I first read it. The two of them are placed in such an extraordinary situation where everything is unfamiliar; that their familiarity, literally as family members, becomes important.

Loki, for all that he pushes people away and betrays them and stabs them in the back, desperately does not ACTUALLY want to be given up on. Thor making real peace with the idea that they’re going to go their separate ways? Thor’s indifference to Loki trying to scheme and plot?

That’s what Loki absolutely cannot stand.

And that’s what the past movies are about–Thor trying to reach him, Loki pushing him away (to see if Thor will keep coming back) but when Thor MOVES ON, when Thor is done mourning and finds his equilibrium again, when Thor says, all right, well, this is what you want, then let’s do it and he means it?

It leaves Loki with the choice to make himself. He can’t pin this choice on Thor or even on Odin. He tries briefly, “Funny how [Odin]’s death should split us apart.” and Thor’s just like, I loved you, but we parted ways a long time ago. You do what you want to do, Loki. Stay in your predictability or be something more, whatever you choose, you choose.

And when it’s on LOKI to make that choice, suddenly he can’t bear to be left behind. Suddenly he can’t bear for Thor to not care about him. Suddenly he can’t bear not to be something more than what he was, because there’s nothing to rebel against and instead it’s up to no one but Loki to make that choice.

So he chooses something more. (In the most Extra and dramatic fashion possible a;skjlakjslajks “YOOOOOUR SAVIOOOOR IS HERE!” oh my god.)

maneth985:

jackpittgregor:

Random spoilery thoughts
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Thor got buzzed by that disk thing how many times in this movie. At least four if not more. Yet I keep seeing posts about thor torturing loki by setting it off on him so he could get back to asgard? Like I don’t get it and I love Loki. Thor didn’t do anything wrong, cruel or mean. And he knew damn well that loki would get out of it. There is like a list a mile long of things loki has done to thor so I just don’t get the thor bashing. They had a great sibling interaction in this movie. And I think it was made clearer than ever that no matter how they might fight or annoy each other, they are brothers and they love each other as such.

Exactly! I don’t see the big deal. But I’m not one to talk, I nearly electrocuted my sister when I was a teenager, not on purpose but I rather enjoyed it.

Here are my problems with it (and note that I don’t hate Thor; I’m just troubled by this specific action):

1) Thor didn’t know how long it would take for someone to happen along, and it did seem to take a while. Thor got shocked several times, but only for a few seconds each time. Loki was being shocked continuously for at least 10 minutes.

2) Thor also didn’t know who would be the first to come along. Luckily it was Korg and he’s a humanitarian, so of course he’s going to turn the thing off. If it had been the Grandmaster, he probably would have turned it off to give Loki a chance to explain himself, and Loki could almost certainly handle him. But what if it had been Topaz? She might have killed Loki while he was still incapacitated. So Thor was taking a major gamble with Loki’s life, in a way that Loki wasn’t when he dropped Thor out of the Helicarrier in The Avengers – he knew Thor could use Mjolnir to get out.

regarding “we were eight”

raven-brings-light:

I’ve often wondered how Odin and Frigga passed Loki off as their child when it had to have been obvious that Frigga wasn’t pregnant a second time. One option I’d idly entertained in the past was that Odin brought Loki back just as Frigga was giving birth to Thor and they’re like “WOOPS LOOKS LIKE IT WAS TWINS”…but they still called Thor the “firstborn” because one of the twins had to have been born first…and I bet Thor would really rub it in and call Loki his little brother all the time…and Loki would be gritting his teeth like “BY SEVEN MINUTES YOU OAF.”

Also, if that was true, the kind of ironic thing would be Loki may actually have been born first.

ANYWAY.

Pointless (probably wrong) speculation, brought to mind again by that bit of dialogue. 😀