There is something about first Thor film that struck me as rather odd, upon my first viewing. Although I admittedly didn’t ponder it too much upon further viewing. And that was the fact that Thor had
Mjölnir
. Thor has been gifted this amazing tool that was forged inside a dying star. The entire narrative revolves around his worthiness of possessing it.
His brother, Loki, has no such tool, and is subject to no such measurement of worthiness. Why? Why would you give one son this amazing thing and then give the other nothing even comparable to at least imply a superficial sort of equality between them? I find it baffling that this could be the case and Loki’s parents would be completely unaware that he might feel slighted in some way. Certainly the public would think of him as less, if he saw him being treated as such by his own family. They might even feel validated in their dislike or distrust of him, if they observed him being treated differently by his own parents.
Yes, Loki had his magic. But that was a craft that he had to work long and hard to perfect. It wasn’t a magic artifact that was just placed in his hands.
“This is my son, Thor! I have gifted him a magical hammer!”
“Who is that other kid?”
“Oh, that’s just Loki. His job is to stand next to Thor.”
“This is my son, Thor! I have gifted him a magical hammer!”
“Who is that other kid?”
“Oh, that’s just Loki. His job is to stand next to Thor.”
Damn.
Tag: thor and loki meta
Thor is all about “mine”, possession. Afraid of Loki’s independent nature, his tendency of sorting things out by himself, Thor has to make sure his brother remembers who he belongs to: neck grabbing, handling him, chains with his name all over it, marking him, showing him around like his most precious possession, brother, my brother, saying his name, just, “mine”.
Loki is about “need me”. Thor has everything, he’s got thunder in his hands, lightning in his eyes, friends, special weapons that only he can lift, he’s got the love of everyone before they even meet him. Loki spent his life feeling replaceable, so he must feel needed: say you need me, mourn me, cry for me, say you’re nothing without me, say that losing me would shatter you. Need me.
I think a lot about Thor avoiding Loki after The Avengers.
he doesn’t go to Loki’s cell. doesn’t talk to him. spends as much time as possible away from Asgard. I think part of it is anger – the betrayal, the sense of how could he do this, a desire to punish Loki by ignoring him (because more than anything else, Loki has always hated being ignored).
but I think part of it is also fear and confusion: Thor doesn’t get why things have changed so much, and he’s afraid of confronting Loki about it, because on some level Thor doesn’t want all his worst impressions to be realized. he hopes there’s some kind of explanation, some kind of reason, maybe even some kind of excuse. but he’s afraid that there just…isn’t, and doesn’t want to face the possibility that the Loki he knew growing up is just…gone forever.
so rather than deal with that, he avoids it, and avoids Loki, because as long as he doesn’t see Loki he doesn’t have to deal with him, and on some level Thor really doesn’t want to.
with Frigga’s murder, the anger overcomes that fear, but he still retains this closed off, hard-hearted facade, because he’s determined, even then, not to deal with the implicit vulnerability of asking why.
because he’s afraid of the answer.
And afraid of being manipulated by Loki, of being called on shit by him. And because Odin forbade any visitors, and Thor wants to be the Good Son, so he kept himself busy cleaning up messes that supposedly Loki inspired.
I too think a lot about this period in their relationships and I love this meta.
I actually wrote it this way in a fic where they finally talk about shit (and also have sex, naturally):
“Why did you not come to see me for a year after I was imprisoned?”
It became clear to Thor that talk of the ‘pang’ of guilt was not merely metaphorical, because he felt it as a sudden ache in his stomach. “I was angry,” he said simply. “And hurt, and confused. But I was too cowardly to ask the questions that ate at me, because I feared what the answers might be. It was… easier to nurse my anger at a distance. To tell myself that I had given you up for lost, when in truth I kept myself in just enough ignorance to keep a spark of hope alive.”
Loki laughed, with far less bitterness than Thor might have expected. “Do you know, that reminds me of this strange theory Midgardians have about ‘subatomic particles’—very small components of matter. They say that the position of these particles is not only unknown but indeterminate until a measurement is taken. A skeptic of this view devised a thought experiment that he took to be a reductio ad absurdum: suppose a cat is put in a box with a flask of poison, and a certain motion of one of these particles will trigger a mechanism to break the flask. If the position of the particle is truly indeterminate until measured, then until we open the box, the cat is both alive and dead—but that cannot be. Just so, it seems, you thought that I was at once lost to you and not, in reach of salvation and not, so long as you never spoke to me to find out which it was.”
Thor frowned. “And yet it is not so strange to think that the state of a person’s mind is unfixed until asked after as to think that a cat may be both alive and dead until seen to be one or the other. I feared that if, in anger, I spoke the wrong words to you, I would ensure that I had lost you forever.”
“But you did not fear that you might ensure it by waiting too long to ask?” Loki said, more gently than the words might have warranted.
Thor pressed his fingers to his closed eyelids and sighed. “I did. I did, but I was a coward. I kept telling myself that it had not been too long yet; that if you were still my brother, a few months would not be enough to change that. I could not bear to let go of either my anger or my hope.”
Loki laughed again, slightly taunting, but still remarkably benign. “If only I had recorded it for the ages—the mighty Thor admitting to cowardice!”
TOP 10 Thor & Loki scenes with character growth.
Oh goodness, anon! You didn’t make this easy! I love it!
I’m not sure how much character growth exists in each individual scene I’ve come up with, but these are my favorite scenes that are part of their overall growth, imo. I can’t really order them, so I’ll just over-explain my thoughts about scenes from each movie.
Thor
The “Give Us a Kiss” Scene
The scene that sets up their brotherhood. And it was deleted. Fucking… Anyway, this scene shows their pre-Thor dynamic well. Loki loves his brother. Thor clearly loves him, too, but there’s so many issues with communication. And I really like that it’s made clear Thor enjoys Loki’s magic, even though he belittles it (in an effort to big up himself, I might add, whilst he’s feeling uncertain about his impending coronation). And, of course, my Thorki heart can’t help but scream when Thor doesn’t just drag Loki into a kiss right then and there. I love how a lot of post-IW time travel fics take Thor back to that moment and have him snog Loki senseless. More of that, please!
The Table Flip Scene
The extended version! They sit closer together. It’s made much more clear how surprised Loki is that Thor talks about shared glory, not just glory for himself. The way Loki plays Thor like a fiddle, but also seems to be genuine in a lot of ways (like the line about how Thor’s day will come–he really just wants to improve Thor and prove to everyone how great his own abilities are, not destroy Thor). Loki looking so fucking happy standing up next to Thor and the way they walk off together. They were so young! They had no idea!
Thor’s Apology Scene
I’ve talked at length about this apology. I love it. I love that Thor’s tries to initiate communication the only way he knows how. He wants to fix whatever’s gone wrong between them. But, of course, it’s not about him. So it doesn’t do anything. No communication occurs. It’s endlessly frustrating and perfect for that reason. Also, it’s great to have Thor in this position where he must talk down the “enemy”.
The Bifrost Fight Scene
*cries* Thor doesn’t even know what’s going on! But he doesn’t want to hurt Loki! asdfghjkl;’
Avengers
The Cliffside Reunion Scene
I feed off the miscommunication in this scene, both purposeful and accidental. Thor misunderstanding Loki’s perspective and anger. Loki’s accusations. Thor dismissing both, even though one is legit. Just… how it shows that they’re both such a mess. That they’re coming from different places. Also the neck grab. The conflict within Loki. The way he leans away, but doesn’t actually try to escape Thor’s hold (at first–he does shrug him off when he actually wants to). And Loki being a little shit at different points. The way the humor and emotion blends. Perfect way to summarize what’s up with their relationship and their characters (for those who haven’t seen Thor). Loki isn’t usually like this (Thor believes someone must be controlling Loki). They’re both terrible communicators. They love each other so much. They’re both deeply hurt and their wounds are fresh.
The Stark Tower Fight Scene
Thor reaching out. Loki hearing him. Loki wanting to accept. Loki knowing he can’t. Because it’s too late. The moment Thor decides he can’t get through to Loki. He comes so close, and yet… Plus, there’s yet another big hint that Loki doesn’t want to be doing this…
Thor: The Dark World
Thor and Loki’s Escape Scene
I will never not enjoy the way Loki’s a little, excited shit the entire time they’re committing treason. The shapeshifting. The spicy neck grab. The backseat driving. “Well Done. You’ve Just Decapitated Your Grandfather.” Loki being impressed with Thor outsmarting him. The way he lights up when he’s driving them through the pathway between realms. You can tell Loki’s slipped back into old behaviors, waiting for Thor to start behaving the way he used to when they went on unsanctioned adventures. Thor, on the other hand, is trying to remain detached/serious/focused. Though there are moments where he can’t help but treat Loki like an obnoxious little brother. Great balance.
The Brothers on the Boat Scene
Loki’s concern being for Thor’s happiness. The way their grief gets the better of both of them and they lash out. The way Loki effortlessly offers comfort. The way Thor looks when he realizes it’s worked, that it did comfort him. That there’s some part of Loki that’s still Loki, not just a selfish, cruel madman. The way Loki looks at Thor! There’s no scene that does better with their post-Thor/post-Avengers dynamic, imo. They both have a voice. No one’s condemning Thor for being upset, but it’s also crystal clear who Loki really is. Their communication problems are also a big part of the scene. Ugh! It’s amazing!
The Confrontation with Malekith and Loki’s “Death”
Thor trusting Loki not only to carry out the plan, but to protect Jane. The way Thor protects Loki. The way he holds him and cries while Loki “dies”. This scene makes me cry. It’s so wonderful. It shows how deeply Thor cares about and trusts Loki, even when he’s angry with him and trying to distance himself. Thor’s loving and protective and conflicted. And heartbroken. I know lots of people get upset about Thor leaving Loki’s body, but I don’t hold that against him. He just committed treason. He can’t take Loki’s body to Asgard. Anyway, this scene is a pretty clear example of character growth. It’s meant to be the moment Thor realizes he gave up on Loki too quickly. And it’s a moment of redemption for Loki (this isn’t negated by the fact he survived–Loki’s illusions are canonically unable to be touched without disruption).
Thor Returns to Face “Odin’s” Judgement
So, I think this scene often gets written off as Loki being evil because of the line at the end, but I don’t see it that way. He offers Thor the throne. He offers Thor the freedom Odin refused to grant him. He lets Thor leave with supportive words from Odin. That’s… all out of a deep love for Thor. Yeah, he benefits from some of it, but what’s he getting out of making Odin look like a good, supportive father? That’s just Loki telling Thor he’s proud of him. And he should be. Thor’s line in that scene really shows how he’s grown through the movies. No longer the child proclaiming himself king. Able to admit that others possess skills he does not. It’s great. I wish this scene were addressed more in fics. I think there’s so much to play with here, and always love seeing people tackle it.
Unpopular opinion: MCU!Thor is not a Loki stan.
- He never makes excuses for Loki’s behavior.
- He agrees with the punishment Loki receives.
- He establishes boundaries for himself to avoid what he sees as a manipulative, hopeless family member (doesn’t visit Loki in prison, doesn’t mourn Frigga with him, etc.).
- He forgives Loki only after Loki displays behavior that to Thor indicates the potential for, if not a willingness to, change.
Yes, Thor loves Loki. Yes, he protects Loki even when he’s upset with him. But he’s never more lenient and forgiving and protective of Loki than I’d expect any loving family member to be (I hope it goes without saying that we’re dealing with a whole different scale when talking about movie villains and Asgardians). His willingness to accept that Loki can be rehabilitated, rather than punished, is indicative of his goodness, but I don’t think it’s something that applies only to Loki. Thor has to believe in the idea that people can right the wrongs they’ve committed and become better because Thor himself has a past.
Thor is a good brother. Not perfect, but he tries (and would do very well if the two of them had any ability to communicate healthily).
But he isn’t a Loki stan.
@foundlingmother replied to your post
“Ugh, I really don’t like it when people reblog stuff about Loki’s…”
Yeah, Thor 100% has the capacity to understand Loki’s grievances, he just didn’t get a chance to because he wasn’t even in Ragnarok, Thor* was. Heimdall might not be a saint, but I think it’s wrong to assume he saw Loki with Thanos. It seems unlikely he would have mentioned none of that. As for Loki pulling a double-cross… while I get the appeal of this, it seems like such an unrealistic culmination of Loki’s arc even ignoring Ragnarok.
I’m not sure I think it would have been Whedon’s angle.
I mean, I know that Thanos behaves kind of stupid in GotG, but I feel like having him accept Loki as his ally with all that happens… would have undermined him as a villain.
Right… I wasn’t completely on board with all of @juliabohemian‘s analysis on my other post. She and I seem to fundamentally disagree about Thor’s moral character and disposition toward Loki as shown in previous films: I think the character called “Thor” in Ragnarok is a radical departure from Thor as we’ve seen him in previous movies, which is why I refer to him as Thor*; she, and many other non-Thorki-shipping Loki fans, think that Ragnarok amplifies Thor’s previous tendencies toward self-absorption and insensitivity, but is not completely discontinuous with the character. I don’t see us coming to full agreement on that issue anytime soon, and that’s fine.
As to the issue of the double-cross being “an unrealistic culmination of Loki’s arc”… I actually disagree with you there. If you just mean it would have been unrealistic for Thanos to accept Loki as his ally, I do see where you’re coming from there, but there are ways around it. The idea of having Thanos take Thor as a hostage is one way. That way Thanos wouldn’t have to trust Loki; he would just have to trust Loki’s unwillingness to allow harm to come to Thor, which given what Thanos knows about him he absolutely would and should. I think that would appeal to Thanos for a couple of reasons:
(1) Good old-fashioned sadism. Whedon’s Thanos clearly wasn’t into any of that pseudo-benevolent Malthusian bullshit; the reference to “courting death” in the Avengers tag scene indicated that Whedon was picturing a Thanos obsessed with Lady Death like he is in the comics. No attempt would have been made to make that Thanos sympathetic. That Thanos is a creepy fucker who would have gotten a kick out of torturing Thor physically (just a little) and torturing Loki psychologically with the knowledge that a step out of line would mean pain and/or permanent damage to Thor. Ooh, maybe he would have cut off a finger or a toe when Loki made a decision to undermine Thanos that he was just barely able to pass off as an incompetent fuck-up. And Loki would have known that… and wouldn’t have hesitated to trade his own pain, but when it’s Thor’s it’s so much worse. (Should I be worried about myself, coming up with this shit?)
(2) It would mean that Loki wasn’t a completely wasted investment. If Thanos were a good economist (which clearly he isn’t…), he wouldn’t buy into the sunk costs fallacy, and he’d be perfectly happy cutting his losses and cutting Loki loose… but I think he’s into narrative neatness (OK, this is just “Abyss” Thanos now, never mind what Whedon would have done) and he would like the idea of making Loki useful after all. Plus, there must have been a reason he thought it was a good idea to trust Loki with the Tesseract retrieval mission – and the Mind Stone! – in the first place; he must think he’s good at some stuff.
If by “unrealistic culmination of Loki’s arc,” you mean it wouldn’t be a realistic place for Loki’s character progression to go, then I definitely disagree. Part of what was so objectionable about Thor*’s treatment of Loki in Ragnarok was that he was effectively demanding that Loki become a different person as a condition of maintaining a relationship with Thor* (classic sign of an abusive relationship, btw). Of course, that demand was also based on the faulty premise, assumed by Ragnarok but by none of the previous films, that Loki’s basic nature or “essence” was the “god of mischief” who betrays people out of hedonistic self-interest or just because he thinks it’s fun. I mean, it’s not unreasonable for Thor to demand that Loki stop betraying him, but when you’re working on the assumption that that’s what Loki has been doing their whole lives, instead of just for the past 6 really shitty years out of 1000+, and that it’s just in his nature to do that, then you’ve really gotta wonder why Thor put up with it for as long as he did… and also you don’t give an abusive “change fundamentally or I’m leaving” ultimatum; you just fucking leave.
One of the best parts of TDW, which totally got me the first time I watched it, was when Loki makes a show of betraying Thor to trick Malekith into drawing the Aether from Jane. That was absolutely brilliant because it was Thor and Loki, together, taking advantage of some of Loki’s most distinctive features – illusion magic, acting ability, and a reputation for treachery – to achieve a good aim they shared. Having Loki pull a long con on Thanos would be that gambit writ large. And ideally, this time – in order for it to represent a progression from the incident in TDW rather than just a replay – Thor would not be on on the plan… but he would indicate, perhaps while conversing in a dungeon with one of Thanos’s other unfortunate prisoners, that he believes Loki is still on his side and is planning to double-cross Thanos in the end. He doesn’t know; he harbors some doubts; but he believes. That would represent character growth for both Thor and Loki: Thor is forced to trust Loki for a long period of uncertainty; and Loki is, on some level, trusting Thor to trust him. That, too, would be a source of anguish for Loki – wondering whether Thor thinks that Loki has betrayed him again, more grievously than ever – but he hopes, and maybe even believes (William James will-to-believe style, because it helps), that Thor believes Loki is doing the right thing, in his indirect, strategic way.
@fuckyeahrichardiii, @illwynd, @incredifishface, @seidrade, I’m bringing y’all in on my harebrained IW do-over ideas because I’m curious to know what you think. (I’m never writing this as a fic, because I’m not that good at plot details, but just the outline.)
i appreciate it, but I think I’ll pass. I can’t engage this level of mind power into fixing a movie I wouldn’t even have made. I simply don’t want to give Thanos a second of my mental time. He’s a stupid character with stupid motivations and he bores me. I would have preferred ye olde “rule the universe hur hur hur” kind of villain 145977577647 times, and failing that, the Thanos in love with Hela / Death was a good route to go to.
So all the artistic and narrative decisions started from a point which for me was already irreparably stupid and boring. they killed Loki in the first 5 minutes, and that’s when they lost me and never got me back.
If I was to conjecture ways to improve this film, it would be with an entirely different villain, with different motivations, and so my contribution as to what part Thor and Loki played in that imaginary story that never was is moot.
i’m bitter and miserable and you’ll find me in the universe next door raving about the Transformers. Now THAT is a plot.
I completely agree with you about the version of Thanos we saw in Infinity War, as written by those dimwitted hacks-turned-freshman boys in philosophy seminar Markus & McFeely and made “sympathetic” by the equally sophomoric Russos. I’m only interested in reimagining the movie with the Thanos who was in love with Death/Hela, largely because in the fic I’ve been writing about what happened to Loki between Thor and The Avengers, that was the motivation I was assuming (and actually wrote in, long before we got the ridiculous movie version of Thanos). And also because I’m fantasizing about the version of IW that Joss Whedon would have written if he hadn’t gotten fed up with Marvel’s meddling in AOU. I really don’t think he would have killed Loki in the first 5 minutes, because he was the one who established the connection with Thanos in the first place and would have wanted to give it a satisfying payoff, and aside from that all the evidence suggests that he was genuinely impressed with the work Hiddleston and Branagh put into building Loki’s character and was invested in continuing to give him depth and interest.
I’m also vaguely assuming in this imagining that we got the version of Ragnarok that we deserved, though I’m also not completely clear on what that would have looked like. Thor and Loki would have had a real fucking conversation, for one thing. I think it was written and directed by Guillermo del Toro. Hela actually had half of her face missing (Guillermo loves that shit), and she and Loki bonded over being seen by the world and themselves as monsters. Maybe she was Loki’s mother, not Thor’s sister. And she definitely didn’t die at the end, because she needs to show up as Thanos’s would-be love interest in IW.
@foundlingmother replied to your post
“Ugh, I really don’t like it when people reblog stuff about Loki’s…”
Yeah, Thor 100% has the capacity to understand Loki’s grievances, he just didn’t get a chance to because he wasn’t even in Ragnarok, Thor* was. Heimdall might not be a saint, but I think it’s wrong to assume he saw Loki with Thanos. It seems unlikely he would have mentioned none of that. As for Loki pulling a double-cross… while I get the appeal of this, it seems like such an unrealistic culmination of Loki’s arc even ignoring Ragnarok.
I’m not sure I think it would have been Whedon’s angle.
I mean, I know that Thanos behaves kind of stupid in GotG, but I feel like having him accept Loki as his ally with all that happens… would have undermined him as a villain.
Right… I wasn’t completely on board with all of @juliabohemian‘s analysis on my other post. She and I seem to fundamentally disagree about Thor’s moral character and disposition toward Loki as shown in previous films: I think the character called “Thor” in Ragnarok is a radical departure from Thor as we’ve seen him in previous movies, which is why I refer to him as Thor*; she, and many other non-Thorki-shipping Loki fans, think that Ragnarok amplifies Thor’s previous tendencies toward self-absorption and insensitivity, but is not completely discontinuous with the character. I don’t see us coming to full agreement on that issue anytime soon, and that’s fine.
As to the issue of the double-cross being “an unrealistic culmination of Loki’s arc”… I actually disagree with you there. If you just mean it would have been unrealistic for Thanos to accept Loki as his ally, I do see where you’re coming from there, but there are ways around it. The idea of having Thanos take Thor as a hostage is one way. That way Thanos wouldn’t have to trust Loki; he would just have to trust Loki’s unwillingness to allow harm to come to Thor, which given what Thanos knows about him he absolutely would and should. I think that would appeal to Thanos for a couple of reasons:
(1) Good old-fashioned sadism. Whedon’s Thanos clearly wasn’t into any of that pseudo-benevolent Malthusian bullshit; the reference to “courting death” in the Avengers tag scene indicated that Whedon was picturing a Thanos obsessed with Lady Death like he is in the comics. No attempt would have been made to make that Thanos sympathetic. That Thanos is a creepy fucker who would have gotten a kick out of torturing Thor physically (just a little) and torturing Loki psychologically with the knowledge that a step out of line would mean pain and/or permanent damage to Thor. Ooh, maybe he would have cut off a finger or a toe when Loki made a decision to undermine Thanos that he was just barely able to pass off as an incompetent fuck-up. And Loki would have known that… and wouldn’t have hesitated to trade his own pain, but when it’s Thor’s it’s so much worse. (Should I be worried about myself, coming up with this shit?)
(2) It would mean that Loki wasn’t a completely wasted investment. If Thanos were a good economist (which clearly he isn’t…), he wouldn’t buy into the sunk costs fallacy, and he’d be perfectly happy cutting his losses and cutting Loki loose… but I think he’s into narrative neatness (OK, this is just “Abyss” Thanos now, never mind what Whedon would have done) and he would like the idea of making Loki useful after all. Plus, there must have been a reason he thought it was a good idea to trust Loki with the Tesseract retrieval mission – and the Mind Stone! – in the first place; he must think he’s good at some stuff.
If by “unrealistic culmination of Loki’s arc,” you mean it wouldn’t be a realistic place for Loki’s character progression to go, then I definitely disagree. Part of what was so objectionable about Thor*’s treatment of Loki in Ragnarok was that he was effectively demanding that Loki become a different person as a condition of maintaining a relationship with Thor* (classic sign of an abusive relationship, btw). Of course, that demand was also based on the faulty premise, assumed by Ragnarok but by none of the previous films, that Loki’s basic nature or “essence” was the “god of mischief” who betrays people out of hedonistic self-interest or just because he thinks it’s fun. I mean, it’s not unreasonable for Thor to demand that Loki stop betraying him, but when you’re working on the assumption that that’s what Loki has been doing their whole lives, instead of just for the past 6 really shitty years out of 1000+, and that it’s just in his nature to do that, then you’ve really gotta wonder why Thor put up with it for as long as he did… and also you don’t give an abusive “change fundamentally or I’m leaving” ultimatum; you just fucking leave.
One of the best parts of TDW, which totally got me the first time I watched it, was when Loki makes a show of betraying Thor to trick Malekith into drawing the Aether from Jane. That was absolutely brilliant because it was Thor and Loki, together, taking advantage of some of Loki’s most distinctive features – illusion magic, acting ability, and a reputation for treachery – to achieve a good aim they shared. Having Loki pull a long con on Thanos would be that gambit writ large. And ideally, this time – in order for it to represent a progression from the incident in TDW rather than just a replay – Thor would not be on on the plan… but he would indicate, perhaps while conversing in a dungeon with one of Thanos’s other unfortunate prisoners, that he believes Loki is still on his side and is planning to double-cross Thanos in the end. He doesn’t know; he harbors some doubts; but he believes. That would represent character growth for both Thor and Loki: Thor is forced to trust Loki for a long period of uncertainty; and Loki is, on some level, trusting Thor to trust him. That, too, would be a source of anguish for Loki – wondering whether Thor thinks that Loki has betrayed him again, more grievously than ever – but he hopes, and maybe even believes (William James will-to-believe style, because it helps), that Thor believes Loki is doing the right thing, in his indirect, strategic way.
@fuckyeahrichardiii, @illwynd, @incredifishface, @seidrade, I’m bringing y’all in on my harebrained IW do-over ideas because I’m curious to know what you think. (I’m never writing this as a fic, because I’m not that good at plot details, but just the outline.)
I love you, my sons.
This is such an interesting contrast in reactions between Loki and Thor with the context of Odin’s quote, because you can tell that while Loki is taken aback, shocked, and even saddened by these words, Thor is still reeling from the revelation of Hela and impending Ragnarok and it doesn’t seem like Odin’s words even really register to him. He knows and has always known that Odin loves him; he’s never been made to doubt it and he has no reason to react with anything other than the barest acknowledgement while his head is still spinning with this new truth he must face.
Loki, however, is much more preoccupied and consumed with the verbal acknowledgement of Odin’s love, and the issue of Hela is little more than a footnote to the conversation for him. He knows much better than Thor how deceptive Odin is, and while initially he’s somewhat surprised by the reveal of Hela, he’s not bowled over in astonished shock the way Thor is.
Loki expects Odin’s lies and is far more bewildered by Odin’s love, while Thor expects Odin’s love and is stunned by Odin’s lies. There’s something incredibly straightforward in that, expressed in each of their reactions, that really just drives home the dichotomy between Thor and Loki in general.
…why are some people so very upset that thor essentially put a tazer on loki? he literally beat loki at his own game? loki was just about to betray him? a part of loki was pretty impressed that thor tricked him? why do we gotta be like this, y’all?
I’ve read everyone’s explanations as to why and I *kind of* get it, but at the same time here are my reasons for not having any issue at all with this scene:
Loki was just about to abandon Thor, again, while being rewarded for Thor’s capture to “set him up nicely.” Thor had every right to defend himself and every right to be tired of Loki’s games in a very critical moment.
Thor has no reason to protect Loki anymore, because no matter what he does, Loki does not change. This doesn’t mean there aren’t unresolved issues between them. It means Thor can’t be the only one trying anymore.
When you have a family member who is consistently choosing to do terrible things with little consideration for the consequences, sometimes you have to put them in a sink or swim situation to protect yourself.
Otherwise, you’ve exhausted yourself trying to help someone who doesn’t want to be helped and who gets hurt in the end? You do. Asgard is literally falling apart and Loki’s selfishness is a liability.
Thor has changed and matured, but that doesn’t mean he’s got to stick to some ridiculous moral code. He’s never been the hero who wont play dirty when he needs to play dirty and I personally respect that.
Loki almost always plays dirty. Loki is also a very powerful being just like Thor. That being said, he’s good at weaseling out of difficult situations and he can fend for himself. I’m honestly not too worried about a taser of all the things.
Loki is one of my favorite characters, but I love Thor’s complexity as well. He doesn’t set himself at a higher standard than anyone else because he doesn’t care about being better than anyone else.
He cares about the task in front of him. He cares about what needs to be done even if he doesn’t like it, but Thor canonically gets pissed off very easily and he’ll show it. He even shows this side of him to his “hero” friends.
And I like that about him.
Loki not only impeded Thor from helping Asgard, but his actions pissed Thor off. I’m not going to nit-pick or hold any ill feelings towards Thor for being pissed off and acting like it, especially when Loki is given excuse after excuse.
Thor isn’t a better individual because he always acts within a rigid moral code. It’s because he’s doing good things and putting others first even when he’s really pissed off about it.
And, I mean… come on… it’s a taser not a death ray. Loki has actually stabbed Thor multiple times. I think Loki can stand having the wiggles for a while until he can manipulate whoever into saving him.
T̲̠̟͕͖͎̠̑̈̈͋̌ͧ̅H͉̋̆͋̾̄ͫ̄Ạ͎̘͎̙ͬN̳͙̯̰̱͈̋̎K̼̜̭͆̆ ̥̟Y̦̭͛ͩ̒͂̆̒̅O͎͆̈̐ͫ̎Ŭ̪͕͈͉̞ͨ̈́̚̚
my very real problem with this whole scene is that any meta concerning that scene for me rests on a basis made of… nothing, really.
That betrayal IS the bread and butter of the comics, in which the characters have been dancing around each other for like 30 human years of issues and continuities, but it feels extremely wrong in the MCU continuity. That’s NOT where they are in the MCU. Loki does not betray and double-cross Thor for shits giggles and cold self-gain in MCU.
Basically, if you have a quick overview, you’ll see that everything Loki has done against Thor in MCU is motivated in deep fresh pain and hurt, that it hurts both of them. The stabbing in Avengers is not a joke, for either. Thor is not used to this, to his brother being an enemy. In the previous 3 films they’ve shared time in we see the grief and shock and disbelief and incomprehension, the attempts to reach him, and then in TDW we see reconciliation, alliance, and more grief. Thor would not be used to it. It would be an extremely callous and baseless thing for Loki to do. So you want to write it in? Sure, but it’s not a fucking joke. Or it shouldn’t be. Idk i don’t know what i’m trying to say. I’m saying it’s fucking wrong.
And yes, then Loki is back from the dead and in the throne of Asgard, and I’m very fricking sorry but Thor’s reaction to the news that Loki is lives is… yeah it’s deeply disappointing and again, wrong in the MCU continuity. And the fact that Loki betrayed him AGAIN wouldn’t be “Loki up to his old tricks again”, it would be the FIRST time Loki betrays him for personal gain, without deeper reasons based mostly on a hell of a lot of pain.
…
you know what, fuck it. Ragarök just doesn’t exist in the same fucking universe as the rest of the MCU and that’s it. Might work as actual adaptation of the comics, and good, great, have fun. But I was hoping to see MCU Thor and Loki. And it could have been done, they could have done both. Just keep some fucking coherence. You can make jokes and then cut people deep with actual real feelings building up from the 3 previous films. They failed miserably at developing that relationship in a way that actually makes sense emotionally or narratively. That’s not where we left them. That’s not where they were. That’s not what TDW Thor would have said or done finding out Loki was alive. THEY DIDN’T EVEN BOTHER WITH AN EXPLANATION OF WHAT HAPPENED THERE, WHAT SORT OF SHIT CONTINUITY IS THAT. LOKI WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE ACTUALLY DIED. ANYBODY THOUGHT WE MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN THE IN-VERSE TYING UP OF LOSE ENDS? no, fuck the first 3 films, booo boring. REALLY TALENTED PEOPLE WHO CARED ABOUT THE MATERIAL AND THE FANS ENOUGH WOULD HAVE MANAGED HUMOR AND DEEP EMOTIONS, OR AT LEAST FUCKING TRIED. They don’t even call themselves god of ANYTHING in the MCU. It’s the first fucking time any of them refer to themselves or others as “god of thunder” or “god of mischief” or “trickster god” or whatever. We do canonically have ODin in TDW explicitly saying “we are not gods” and then all of a sudden YOU’RE A GOD HE’S A GOD EVERYBODY IS A GOD.
I couldn’t fucking finish it the other day. That is not Thor. Its not even Comics Thor. My Thor has a fucking heart and feels things deeply, in his every incarnation BUT RAGNARÖK. HERE I’M MAKING MYSELF FURIOUS AGAIN.
And I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: if Ragnarök was the only Thor & Loki MCU film, I would not have written 6 THorki novels in 4 years, because I wouldn’t have given a shit about anyone in there.
i wish i could distance myself and enjoy it but no. I’ve come to this point. I don’t like that film. Everything feels wrong, the jokes aren’t that funny, and most are OOC. Cool aesthetics tho, and yay cool god of thunder and immigrant song.
they don’t even fucking touch once. Is that accidental?? No neck grabbing, no intense manhandling, no soul-searching glares?? Fuck that too.
oh fuck this i’m having a shit day.
In light of THIS post:
First, I’d really like to write more about this, but free time is intermittent for me. Please, please don’t comment or share this just to argue with me. If you have well thought out points that are based on critical thinking, okay. Otherwise, that’s not why I come to this site. And I will probably just end up blocking you to save myself the stress.
That being said…
I think my issue with Thor fans is that they don’t analyze Loki’s relationship with him critically. Imagine that you just met these two guys. They weren’t gods. They were just two brothers. One wasn’t a hero and one wasn’t a villain. They were just regular guys. Their relationship would seem woefully imbalanced. Most people’s perception of these two characters is deeply colored by the fact that one is marketed to us as a hero and the other a villain.
I often seen people cite examples of how Thor loves Loki -but then they will list something that is actually an example of how their relationship is dysfunctional. Thor “trusting” Loki in TDW was not love. It was desperation to save Jane. It was about his infatuation for Jane. Thor’s relationship with Jane didn’t last -most likely because it was more about possessing her than actually being with her physically.
Thor telling Loki “maybe you’re not so bad” or “maybe there’s still good in you” or “I thought the world of you” is not love. It’s manipulative and passive aggressive and once again, dysfunctional.
Thor using Loki to do “get help” was not an example of how well they get along. It was an example of how Thor continually disregards Loki’s feelings, as long as it serves his purpose.
Thor is nice to Loki when he needs something from him. The eagerness with which Loki responds to this is disturbing. They are both very messed up people. Loki’s eagerness to gain validation from someone is most likely what led to his entanglement with Thanos.
Thor’s obsession with Earth is not love. It’s ego. He likes the idea of protecting someone who is smaller than he is. He likes that they adore and worship them there. And in his defense…who the hell wouldn’t like that?
Does that mean Thor isn’t capable of love? No way. It just means that because of his personalty, experience and maturity level, his concept of what it means to love someone is fairly skewed. Loki’s too, for that matter.
Now all of that being said, I don’t mind that this is their relationship. If they weren’t dysfunctional, they would likely be very boring. I continue to be confused as to why people want to defend Thor, as though the fact that he is a hero means he is supposed to be completely without flaws or questionable motives.
In classic literature, heroes are flawed by nature.
Here’s what Thor SHOULD have said to Fury in Avengers: “My brother tried to kill himself and I’m frankly relieved to find out that he’s still alive. He is unwell, I’m afraid. Please allow me to talk to him and reason with him and take him back home.” And then Thor would have done his best to return Loki to Asgard immediately, instead of dicking around on a hillside with Tony Stark and then dragging Loki off so SHIELD could put him in Bruce Banner’s cage. Those would have been the actions of someone who loved and cared for his brother. Unfortunately, they would also have made for a very boring movie, which is why we got something else.
I will add to this later, when I have time.
I have less of a problem with Thor’s lapses in sensitivity in The Avengers than in Thor: Ragnarok, because he’s still working on his process of maturation and we’re aware that he comes from a warrior culture steeped in toxic masculinity and completely lacking a compassionate understanding of mental illness. But we watch him growing up through the movies that follow… until Thor: Ragnarok, when all of that is more than reversed.
The other extremely problematic thing that I see people citing as an example of how much Thor loves Loki is “Thor didn’t kill Loki when he could have.” Like, what? That is such an incredibly low bar. No shit you don’t kill someone you love, even when they do something shitty to you. If you love them, you also don’t inflict unnecessary pain on them. Saying “Thor just immobilized him with the obedience disk instead of killing him for his betrayal” is like saying “You know that husband loves his wife because he only sprained her wrist when he found her cheating on him, he didn’t actually break it.”
And no, that is not comparable to arguing that Loki still cares about Thor even when he’s in villain mode because he only does things to incapacitate him, not kill him. What Loki does when he’s having a complete emotional and psychological breakdown in Thor or when he’s been manipulated, probably tortured, and severely coerced by Thanos (NOT brainwashed or mind-controlled, I didn’t say that) is NOT comparable to what Thor does when he’s completely in control of his rational faculties, as part of his “clever plan” to reform Loki. In my fanfiction, I’ve had to reinterpret that incident in Ragnarok as Thor reacting in irrational anger, because otherwise it’s unconscionable.
Loki is the Philosopher King 