But when it comes to the ultimate Marvel villain, come
on, it’s Loki. Not a single MCU villain to date comes close to touching
the pathos of Tom Hiddleston’s Loki, who basically stole Thor even before he was revealed to be an antagonistic force. We care
about Loki, even when he’s doing awful things, and his story is
ultimately one of tragedy. That’s what makes him compelling, and that’s
what no other Marvel movie has been able to replicate. Granted, Loki got
to build his pathos as a friendly face first before being outed as a
baddie, but even in The Avengers there’s a
dynamism to the performance and the role that makes it utterly
watchable. Here’s hoping Loki sticks around for a very, very long time.
I largely agree with the ordering and analysis – especially #1 and 2 – but I would have put Thanos higher on the grounds of his background presence in The Avengers and the utter creepiness of his role as Gamora and Nebula’s “father” in the GOTG movies. I also would have put Red Skull lower, because I found him kind of a boring, predictable cartoon “I vant to take over ze vorld” villain in much the same way as Malekith and Hela. (Yeah, I know, the Nazis really were like that… except that Red Skull isn’t really a Nazi, and doesn’t care about the race stuff, so his motivation is just sort of confusing. Just like Hydra’s motivations in general, as the discussion of Alexander Pierce notes.)
I definitely would have put Ultron higher than Red Skull, precisely for the reasons the writer describes:
Writer/director Joss Whedon is asking big, difficult, and dark questions with this film concerning parentage and basic humanism, and James Spader’s evil robot Ultron is something of a mouthpiece for these ideas and concerns. Ultron is essentially Tony’s legacy in humanoid form, and this is a story of a son denying his father and carving out a legacy of his own. While the visual design of the character is a bit underwhelming, his motivations and Shakespearean-like dialogue are delectable, and Spader makes a meal of it. That final scene between Ultron and Vision, discussing the value of humanity itself, is something that could only come from the mind of Whedon in the context of a massive blockbuster sequel, and Ultron makes for one of the MCU’s very best baddies.
This writer – free of Tumblr’s self-righteous, aesthetically indiscriminate animus against Joss Whedon (and probably a white dude, which of course automatically discredits him, except in certain circles when he ranks Loki #1…) – recognizes what still makes Whedon an interesting writer: the philosophical issues he’s willing to take on even in an action movie. Maybe it wasn’t very effective if audiences didn’t really get what was going on: the question whether humanity, considering all its horrors, deserves to exist; whether logically infallible computerized intelligence would do better morally; whether it’s immoral to destroy a form of life whose existence is, on balance, a bad thing; whether and how AI, as a human creation, counts as a successor to or even a descendant of humanity… Black Panther makes its moral/philosophical issues pretty obvious and accessible; and perhaps people on Tumblr will say that the issues Age of Ultron raises, abstract as they are, are ones that only white men could care about (in the way that so-called Effective Altruists in Silicon Valley have decided, absurdly, that the most urgent moral problem is preventing the AI revolution because, even though it’s having no effects now, if/when it does come the consequences will be so cataclysmic). Admittedly, I am white (in most contexts), and as a reasonably successful analytic philosopher I might count as an honorary man, so perhaps it’s no counterargument that I find it interesting and still like Joss Whedon’s writing.
so like, i realize this has probably already been said today, but in case not:
seeing thor be tortured like that just makes me think that loki was probably tortured like that too, u know? 😦
and it’s so upsetting for a variety of reasons. like obv, thor himself being tortured really just feels so, so wrong. seeing him so helpless and out-of-sorts being dragged by his skull… the way his eyes roll back in his head. i’m. just. -incoherent screaming- T_T
and then (assuming it’s the same scene and not disjointed), seeing loki take in that visible breath while he watches it happen like i know exactly how that feels and i can’t do anything to help you
cathartic discussion time for all my loki stans: how the fuck is he going to be killed
Thanos seems to have the Power Stone when he arrives on Earth via the portal. I imagine he uses that. Or perhaps Corvus Glaive skewers Loki with his pike.
And he defo dies protecting Thor in some way. I will accept nothing else (not that I’m accepting it anyways).
that’s such shit though he already “died” protecting Thor and I’d like to think that Thor and Loki are equals and that neither of them should have to die for each other to prove themselves
*raises hands* I agree with you. I also think it would be a massive waste to kill Loki in Infinity Wars. His connection to Thanos would make for an interesting bit of plot, and I wonder if it will be addressed at all with him dead (which he most certainly will be, probably in the first five minutes).
Well, at least if Loki’s connection with Thanos is never addressed/explained, then Abyss will never become defunct (and I don’t have to finish it before Infinity War comes out, which is probably not going to happen anyway).
Okay my prediction is that Loki won’t die. I know that in the promos we’ve only seen him in that one scene, which doesn’t bode well.
But what if it’s because showing him later in the movie would be a spoiler?
Maybe:
– Loki will give the Tesseract to Thanos, but then it will be revealed at the dramatic conclusion that he had a devious plan to help the Avengers all along.
– We and/or Thor will think Loki is dead, but he’s actually alive and working for Thanos, giving a dramatic reveal when Loki turns up for the final battle.
I have about 80% confidence that Loki will die at some point in the movie, but I’m only at 50% that he’ll die in the first 5 minutes.
If Loki does not die in the first 5 minutes, I’m voting for some combination of the options you outline above: Thor (and possibly the audience) thinks Loki is dead, and he appears to be working for Thanos either when he shows up in the final battle or (if the audience knows he’s alive) during the time between his separation from Thor and the final battle. But then at some point in the final battle he reveals that he was planning to double-cross Thanos all along.
I hate to rain on everyone’s parade (all evidence to the contrary–my meta is one giant storm over parades of people who actually enjoy Ragnarok, and other Marvel movies occasionally), but what possible reason does Thanos have to trust/recruit Loki? Loki lost one of the Infinity Stones. Even if he gives the Tesseract over, the Mind Stone’s still gone, and Thanos may even know about Loki’s part in keeping the Aether from him.
Much as Loki playing double agent sounds cool to me, it just doesn’t seem likely. Thanos would seem stupid, weak, and desperate to trust someone that failed him before, and I’m pretty sure even Marvel knows that.
The reason I think Loki might be apparently allied with Thanos is not so much because Thanos has reason to trust him as because of something Kevin Feige said, reported in this article from The Mary Sue. (Ignore some of the other obnoxious things in the article, including calling Taika Waititi “our Lord and savior.” *shudder* *barf*) If you watch the video, the relevant portion starts at 1:57.
This also supports the hypothesis that Loki will eventually die in the movie, because Feige says he “might show up for a while.” “A while” does seem to suggest longer than 5 minutes, but who knows.
Hmmm… Again, much as the double agent thing is cool, I think it would undermine Thanos’ character (which has thus far been characterized by his brutality even to his minions/allies/children).
Now, if Thanos knows that Loki knows where the Aether is, but not where Loki sent it (which seems odd, but it could be possible), I could see him keeping him around until he… talks… (at which point I think I’d prefer him dying in the first five minutes–death is preferable to more torture)
But who knows. Maybe Marvel will find a way for Loki to convince Thanos he’s tots on his side, and we’ll get the double agent plot line with or without a heroic death later in the film.
They haven’t had a problem with undermining Thanos’s character before… he came off looking pretty fucking incompetent in Guardians of the Galaxy.
Hmm, interesting thought about keeping Loki around to tell him where the Aether is. I don’t think Marvel will show or even imply any really gruesome torture; probably just more electrocution or something. (Thor and Thanos have something in common!) But they’re definitely going for a darker, grimmer (or even grimdark) tone for this movie, so I certainly wouldn’t put it past them.
Or maybe Loki will pretend to be cooperating so he doesn’t get tortured. We can hope.
The composition here is very interesting. To some extent it indicates which villains they take to be most important; note that secondary villains like Justin Hammer, Kurse, Ayesha, and Ulysses Klaue are placed farther back and smaller than primary villains. Not sure why Zemo is so far back and tiny, though, considering that he was the primary villain of Civil War… maybe because he’s an operate-from-the-shadows kind of villain? (Computer-Zola is also in the back, but that might be for purely visual considerations.) Also, they’ve got the Mandarin a.k.a. Trevor Slattery on there pretty prominently, but where’s Aldrich Killian? Is he the guy between Ego and Zemo who looks like he’s on fire? Because if not I can’t figure out who that is. Note also that Hela and Ayesha are the only women. C’mon, Marvel.
Most importantly, though: what does it mean that Loki is placed front and center, and relatively larger than his nearest neighbors, making it look like he’s farther forward? Is it just because he was the villain of the first ensemble Avengers movie? Does it recognize the connection between him and Thanos? Is it an acknowledgment of his popularity, and the fact that he consistently gets ranked as the best Marvel villain? Might it be a sign (please, please) that they’ll let him play a significant role in Infinity War? (Again, I know I’m grasping at straws…)
The composition here is very interesting. To some extent it indicates which villains they take to be most important; note that secondary villains like Justin Hammer, Kurse, Ayesha, and Ulysses Klaue are placed farther back and smaller than primary villains. Not sure why Zemo is so far back and tiny, though, considering that he was the primary villain of Civil War… maybe because he’s an operate-from-the-shadows kind of villain? (Computer-Zola is also in the back, but that might be for purely visual considerations.) Also, they’ve got the Mandarin a.k.a. Trevor Slattery on there pretty prominently, but where’s Aldrich Killian? Is he the guy between Ego and Zemo who looks like he’s on fire? Because if not I can’t figure out who that is. Note also that Hela and Ayesha are the only women. C’mon, Marvel.
Most importantly, though: what does it mean that Loki is placed front and center, and relatively larger than his nearest neighbors, making it look like he’s farther forward? Is it just because he was the villain of the first ensemble Avengers movie? Does it recognize the connection between him and Thanos? Is it an acknowledgment of his popularity, and the fact that he consistently gets ranked as the best Marvel villain? Might it be a sign (please, please) that they’ll let him play a significant role in Infinity War? (Again, I know I’m grasping at straws…)
Loki is the Philosopher King 