One of the lines in “Thor: The Dark World” that gets overlooked, I think (possibly because Marvel cut it from the final edit) was when Thor is talking to Frigga about Loki, and she says to him that he and Odin always shone so brightly, it was hard for Loki to find any sun for himself, or something to that effect.
Anyway, this is such a massively important line, because it basically tells us EVERYTHING about Loki’s childhood, and how he felt. And here again is yet another example of how absolutely WRONG Taika Waitit’s view of these characters was, given what I heard about him wanting to include a flashback in Ragnarok showing Thor as a sensitive and bullied child, and Loki as dark and mean. That would have been in DIRECT conflict with everything we know about these characters, just like everything else in Ragnarok is.
From what Frigga says to Thor, it’s plain as day that Loki as a child was always struggling just to catch up to Thor, to try and be equal to him, not just in Odin’s and Frigga’s eyes, but in the eyes of probably the entire kingdom. It tells us that Thor, as a boy, was as popular and well liked, as charming and charismatic and as easy to make friends as he is as an adult, and that Loki was very much the introvert, quiet, awkward and isolated. And from Loki’s desperation to win Odin’s approval in the first Thor film, I think it becomes apparent that that desperation grew directly from his feeling inadequate and lesser to the standard of both his father and his big brother growing up. And it’s just so unbelievably sad, to envision that. To envision Loki constantly struggling, trying to match Thor, trying to make himself seem as good as Thor for Odin, trying to make himself seem like a “true and worthy son”, as he says in the first film. How anyone could miss this about his character is beyond me, unless they’re being willfully obtuse.
And we see from this one line, that Loki’s entire motivation is based on a feeling of lack on his own part. He feels like he’s less. He feels like he isn’t as good as Thor, and that Odin must not love him because he’s not as good as Thor, and until he discovers he’s a Jotun, he doesn’t know why, and he can’t figure it out, and he keeps trying and trying to do the right thing to somehow make him, in his father’s eyes, Thor’s equal. Think of the kind of psychological effect that would have on a person, especially a young man growing up in the kind of culture Loki did. Think of the burden of constantly feeling like there’s something WRONG with you, because you’re constantly measuring yourself against the perfection of an older sibling who everyone loves, while everyone treats you like you’re strange, and even are at times outwardly hostile and cruel to you. Think of the weight of trying to figure out how to change yourself so that others will treat you like they treat your perfect older sibling, but not being able to, because you don’t really know what it is about you that makes everyone dislike or hate you in the first place. And then think of what it must have been like, to discover you’re from a race of beings who the people you’ve grown up around consider to be monsters, who are those people’s mortal enemies, and coming to the swift and awful realization that that must have been it all along. That THAT’S what was wrong with you. That that’s why you’ve always been an outcast.
I just think that one moment from The Dark World was so important for understanding Loki’s character.
And yet, once again, Marvel proves it’s own stupidity by cutting it out. Just like they cut out so many scenes from the first Thor film which showed Loki in a more sympathetic light. Gee, it’s almost like they didn’t want people feeling for him. Too bad they ended up doing so anyway.
WAITITI WANTED TO SHOW THOR AS BULLIED BY LOKI WHAT?!?!?!
Because he thinks the only way to make a hero likable and relatable is to show them as an awkward outsider. And since Thor is the hero… But of course this completely ignores/denies the “high brought low”/ “humble the proud” storyline of the first “Thor” movie.
Taika was not interested in “respectfully disrespecting” the previous movies; he just didn’t give a shit. And has no storytelling or character range, apparently.
yeah it shows.. he definitely didn’t do it because he loved the characters @philosopherking1887 :’)
I mean, this is obviously meant to be taken as a joke… but you can tell the ugly truth if you’re confident that everyone will take it as a joke. (Though I have to say, I think fame was at least as strong a motivation as money.)
Wow Waititi is being a gross asshole today for no good reason. WTF man, it’s not your job to decide which Marvel movies should / will be done.
If it’s supposed to be humorous, I fail to see the humor.
He was always an asshole. The success of his film only showed off his Loki/Tom hating assholery.
Oh, thank goodness there are people on here who think this is rude! The first post I saw with pictures of these tweets was praising TW’s response. I get it if you don’t want a Loki movie–I don’t really want one either (I’d like the MCU to stop messing with Loki and Thor because they don’t care about them at all)–but the people in the comments of that post were mocking the twitter user, and found TW’s response hilarious and proper. Um, no. He could and should have just ignored this person. Instead, he utterly crushed them.
Sorry if you didn’t want those tags made more visible, @foundlingmother, but I do have something to say about this. I have noticed that certain Thorki shippers like to diminish Loki’s virtues and complexity and I kind of thought it might be an oppositional reaction to the “Loki’s Army”/ “Loki’s Resistance” types who absolve Loki of all guilt for his misdeeds and usually blame Odin and Thor (and Thanos, later) for all of Loki’s problems. These people sanctify Loki and demonize Thor as a bully/abuser, so the contrary reaction of the Thor stans is to sanctify Thor and demonize Loki.
This looks very odd if they ship Thor and Loki: why would you want a character you love and think is perfect to be with a character you despise and think has no redeeming qualities (other than physical attractiveness, maybe)? That’s part of why I suspect that the demonization of Loki is just a reaction to the contrary view, which (I gather) gained prominence in 2012-13; after Thor 1, which came out in 2011 (or maybe before they encountered Loki’s Resistance on Tumblr, if they entered the fandom later), such Thorki shippers may have recognized the interest and complexity of both characters, but started denying it later. The Thor-hating Loki stans, meanwhile, are at least consistent in that they never ship Loki with Thor; instead, they usually ship Loki with themselves or a self-insert OFC (sometimes named Sigyn for the sake of appearances).
Or maybe these Thorki shippers always despised Loki and they just think that Hiddleston and Hemsworth are hot together. Or maybe it’s just an acknowledgment that Thor (at least before Ragnarok) loves and values Loki and wants to be with him, and their idea of a happy resolution – like TW and CH’s, apparently – is for Loki to give up all independent agency and conform himself to Thor’s desires.
@philosopherking1887 Nah, I don’t mind. I just wasn’t going to add it since it wasn’t relevant.
I agree it’s very possible that it’s a reaction to those Loki fans, and I find it just as annoying. Oddly enough, however, I’ve found few people who really meet that description of a Loki stan. I mean, I’ve found people who meet a few of those criteria, who proclaim themselves to be part of the “Loki army” and/or ship Loki with themselves or Sigyn (and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that–ship whatever makes you happy), but they tend to be pretty reasonable, and have a nuanced perspective on Loki and Thor’s relationship and Loki’s crimes (at least, judging by how they interact with my meta on the subjects, and my Thor meta in particular). Maybe it’s just because of the part of the fandom I’m in being a Thorki shipper, but I find a lot more Loki-hating (or at least demeaning) Thor stans. (Of course, I’ve found both–those Loki fans do 100% exist and they are really weird. Loki’s done bad shit, guys.)
That may just be a product of my own bias, however. Perhaps I’m a mega Loki stan who only thinks they love Thor and Loki equally. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Some “Loki’s Army” members and/or Loki x self or Loki x OFC shippers have reasonable, well-balanced views; many do not. (I don’t condemn such ships, either, but I’m very definitely not into it.) I don’t always follow all the additions to your meta threads, so I’m not sure who you’re encountering, but I have noticed that many of the people who reblog and add their thoughts to my Ragnarok-critical posts are Loki stans of the type I dislike (i.e., they hate Thor and regard Loki as a blameless victim). (No, I’m not going to block them; I just sometimes feel the need to reblog again and clarify my own position.)
I think I encounter obnoxious stans of both types in about equal numbers. These days, I think the Thor stans annoy me more because (1) they have patently incorrect views about the quality of Thor: Ragnarok; (2) I used to respect some of them as writers and even have semi-friendly relationships with them, and I’m currently feeling seriously disillusioned; and (3) I feel protective ofLoki and I don’t want people shipping him with Thor if they have no respect for Loki and think the Thor of Thor: Ragnarok (or Thor*, as I’ve called him before) is a good version of Thor. I would never ship Loki with Thor*; I have to do some massive mental revisions of what went on in Ragnarok to justify continuing to ship Thor/Loki. I agree that their view isn’t really any less irritating if it was arrived at through reaction to the excesses of Loki’s Resistance; it’s a sign of epistemic and character weakness to be so reactive that you abandon your original balanced view for an unjustified extreme just to show your opposition to some other extremists.
The main reason I get annoyed with the Loki stans is because they co-opt my posts and add to the erroneous impression some people in the Thorki fandom seem to have that I share the views of Loki’s Resistance. Not that I should care what certain people think of me… but even if they hate me, I want them to hate me for the right reasons. Even Nietzsche was anxious not to be mistaken for someone he wasn’t, even though he fully acknowledged that most people would be horrified and offended by what he had to say.
NB: I don’t consider myself a “stan” for anyone. I am an avid Loki fan, but the term “stan” seems to me to have the connotation of acknowledging no faults.
Wow Waititi is being a gross asshole today for no good reason. WTF man, it’s not your job to decide which Marvel movies should / will be done.
If it’s supposed to be humorous, I fail to see the humor.
He was always an asshole. The success of his film only showed off his Loki/Tom hating assholery.
Oh, thank goodness there are people on here who think this is rude! The first post I saw with pictures of these tweets was praising TW’s response. I get it if you don’t want a Loki movie–I don’t really want one either (I’d like the MCU to stop messing with Loki and Thor because they don’t care about them at all)–but the people in the comments of that post were mocking the twitter user, and found TW’s response hilarious and proper. Um, no. He could and should have just ignored this person. Instead, he utterly crushed them.
I don’t think Marvel could make a Loki movie work, and certainly not with TW as director. But that’s not what was at play here. A very enthusiastic and probably young fan was dunked into dirt for all to see because she dared to @ a self-proclaimed “god”. So that said “god” could feed it’s own already morbidly fat ego.
Exactly. He doesn’t like Loki (can I say he hates him? Because it’s what I feel since the first time ) and he doesn’t even make any efforts to hide it, maybe only for politeness. Okay…
But this doesn’t give him the right to be such rude with a girl. A fan. It’s not his decision. He’s not entitled to give this kind of comment/answer. Where’s the respect toward people who go to see your movie? Who have paid money for seeing a bad parody and a mock of three previous movies? Who have paid money for seeing important characters broken in pieces or mocked or dismissed?
I really don’t understand…
He’s clearly contemptuous of Loki/Tom’s female fans and the movie made no secret of that contempt – as @fuckyeahrichardiii has observed, it’s like he was deliberately trying to drive them away.
Loki is the Philosopher King 