Tag: ragnarok spoilers

Why was Loki able to extract Valkyrie’s memory?

led-lite:

philosopherking1887:

This is not something we’ve seen him do before. Not that he would have had any occasion to in previous movies, but this is kind of in a different category from other things he does with magic: mostly illusions, shapeshifting, and moving things around.

This is some wild-ass, blatantly self-interested speculation, but… what if the power to draw out other people’s memories is a relatively new ability that he gained from his interaction with the Mind Stone? Scarlet Witch got her powers from experimentation with the Mind Stone, and one of the things we’ve seen her do is get into people’s heads and make them experience things based on their worst fears and most painful memories.

This at least suggests that forcing people to re-experience memories is one of the things that the Mind Stone can do, in addition to co-opting their will to make them serve the aims of the wielder. I think everyone I know has dismissed the idea that Thanos was controlling Loki the way Loki controlled Barton and Selvig; that’s probably not something you can do to a magically powerful being like Loki. BUT Scarlet Witch was able to do the fear-exploiting thing with Thor, and Loki simultaneously experienced and forced the Valkyrie to re-experience her worst memory – that is something you can do to more powerful beings.

So… this provides some circumstantial evidence in favor of the theory I explore in my fic The Abyss Gazes Also about what happened between Thanos and Loki: that Thanos exploited Loki’s own fears, resentments, and insecurities and forced him to re-experience his most traumatic memories involving his family (especially Thor and Odin) to manipulate him into invading Earth on Thanos’s behalf and fighting against his adoptive family.

Tagging people who read my fic and might care: @angrymadsygin, @darklittlestories, @fuckyeahrichardiii, @iamhisgloriouspurpose, @ikoliholic, @illwynd, @lunariagold, @nursejoh53, @raven-brings-light, @writernotwaiting

@philosopherking1887 Honestly, my inclination as well. It’s not exactly like Loki would have been around to experience this happening so he couldn’t project something that he knew or witnessed, he had to have reached into her mind.

I further thought that Loki may have also been able to blend some of these new powers into whatever the hell he did to Odin because Odin would not have known or expected his son to come at him with these abilities.

(Sidenote, my ‘funny’ head canon is that Odin regaining his mind is what caused the actual destruction of that Shady Acres old folks home, take that or leave it :p)  

Oh, interesting point about Odin. That actually suggests that the Mind Stone allows someone to delete or alter memories, or maybe even implant false ones. I was resisting the idea that that was something Thanos could have done to Loki – even though it’s a much neater explanation of the “I remember you tossing me into an abyss” line – because I thought it would be more interesting, poignant, and ultimately fucked-up if he was able to get Loki to the point he was at in “The Avengers” using only Loki’s own memories and emotions as raw material…

Can we please talk about how “Odin” had tons girls all around him and was being fed grapes when Thor got to Asgard. That is the bases of so many Loki fics Hahaha bless you Taika

led-lite:

philosopherking1887:

lokilickedme:

icouldkillyouwiththistray:

lokilickedme:

Mr Waititi totally reads fan fiction.  He can’t deny it because we’ve seen the proof (not that I think for one second he would actually deny it).

Also on Sakaar – Loki was surrounded by ladies there as well when Thor arrived.  Once again telling a charming story and basking in the admiration of beautiful women.  

At first I thought it was a bit smallminded to portray him that way, as being surrounded only by females when he is canonically (and possibly MCU-ically as well) genderfluid – but since he’s wearing the countenance of a handsome male, it makes sense.  And then I thought, so where are the men who would likewise find this gorgeous male specimen attractive?  And in walks the Grandmaster to fill that role.

And boy did he lol

I think they did okay by Loki.  But yeah, whoever wants to feed him grapes and worship him is fine by him, he really doesn’t care about the specifics…it’s the adoration he’s in love with  😉

@lokilickedme

Did you hear the last line of that story on Sakaar? “And then I let go…?” Or similar. I think he was telling his own story of what happened in the first Thor movie. 😀

I’m glad he’s getting it off his chest lol

Yep.  His tone of voice and smug, charming grin seemed to indicate he was putting a light spin on it as well, like hey, listen to this brave and awesomely cool thing I did.  I wasn’t about to be caught dead going back to those dipshits so rather than let my brother, who was sobbing like a baby, pull me back up…I just…let go.

He’s obviously still got deep seated issues linked to that event and the events that led up to it.  Poor guy.  But yeah, talking about it to strangers in a manner that evokes ooohs and ahhhhs from them is probably good for him.  Anonymous therapy 😉

@icouldkillyouwiththistray

I’d really like to see that explored (or maybe explore it in fic myself) – I found it extremely strange that he was telling that story in a way that invited laughs.

I thought I didnt hear let go, I thought he said something about a worm hole and then just was playing off how damn nice it was to wind up on Sakaar. I remember hearing it that way because it reminded me of Jack in Titanic explaining how he wound up at the rich people’s table XD (IS THAT REFERENCE TOO OLD? Tell me it’s not)

I definitely heard “and then I let go.” I was shocked the first time and thought I might have misheard it, so I listened carefully the second time and heard the same thing. He might be relating that as part of how he ended up in luxury on Sakaar, but it’s a weird thing to laugh about…

enchantedbyhiddles:

@erinthevampire
replied to your post “Question about the after credit scene of Thor: Ragnarok…[[MOR] The…”

NO>>I REFUSE TO LISTEN TO THIS

I take an ethic course this semester and we had an interesting first lesson about different schools of ethics.

Kantian ethics, that are prevalent in Europe, value intention most. A person is good, when they had good intentions and do something for the right reasons, even if the outcome is horrible.

Consequentialist ethics are prevalent in anglophile (especially US) countries. There the intentions don’t matter at all and only the outcome of an action determines if a person acted in an ethically good way or not.

Explains a lot why people might determine if a person (in this case Thor) is acting good or bad.

OK, I have a lot to say about the original meta post… but the upshot is that I strongly disagree. One of many reasons being that in the MCU, Thor is pretty consistently the representative of Kantian/deontological (i.e., rule-based) ethics, while Odin and Loki lean more consequentialist. (P.S., on Earth I see Steve and Tony representing a similar contrast.) I always read “I’d rather be a good man than a great king” as “I’d rather keep my conscience clean than have to make decisions that trade lives for more lives.”

Now, it may be that now that Thor has accepted the mantle of kingship, he’s converted to consequentialism. But handing Loki over to Thanos is the kind of move that’s standardly used as an argument against consequentialism (or specifically utilitarianism). If Thor encountered Thanos or even heard of him on his travels, he must know how ruthless and cruel he is. He would know, or should be able to guess, what kind of horrific torture he would be condemning Loki to. Is that worth it for the mere possibility of protecting Asgard and Earth? Why should he trust Thanos to keep, or even make, a promise to leave them alone if Loki is turned over to him?

thorkizilla:

Thor (2011) + Thor: Ragnarok (2017):

Thor: There won’t be a kingdom to protect if you’re afraid to act! The Jotuns must learn to fear me, just as they once feared you!
Odin: That’s pride and vanity talking, not leadership. You’ve forgotten everything I taught you about a warrior’s patience.
Thor: While you wait, and be patient, the Nine Realms laugh at us. The old ways are done! You’d stand giving speeches while Asgard falls!
Odin: You are a vain, greedy, cruel boy!
Thor:  And you are an old man and a fool!
Odin: Yes, I was a fool to think you were ready. Thor Odinson, you have betrayed the express command of your king. Through your arrogance and stupidity, you have opened these peaceful realms and innocent lives to the horror and desolation of war! You are unworthy of these realms! You’re unworthy of your title! You are unworthy of the loved ones you have betrayed. I now take from you your power! In the name of my father and his father before, I, Odin Allfather, cast you out!

WHOEVER HOLDS THIS HAMMER, IF HE BE WORTHY, SHALL POSSESS THE HAMMER OF THOR.

Hela’s use of Mjolnir once upon a time lends a whole new context to what Thor’s arc over his movies + the Avengers movies already was–his story is one of an immensely powerful god who must either learn to wield it with care towards others or be lost to evil and violence and cruelty, not only himself but everyone else around him.  It lends an entirely new context to Odin’s reaction to Thor’s fight on Jotunheim and his words–words that must have been so much an echo of what Hela may have said once upon a time.

The realms must learn to fear her, just like her father.  That he only sits there now and is a fool not to bring the other Realms under the hell of Asgard.  And, just as he did with such a heavy heart, he had to cast her out, her violence and cruelty and vanity too much to bear.

Then again he must do the same with Thor.

Where Thor is different (and we do not know how many chances Odin gave Hela, though, she would not have wanted them or used them) is that he finds the strength to look around him when he’s pulled up short.  That he becomes worthy of the hammer, that he becomes the great man and great king that his people need him to be.

He rules without Mjolnir, because his power is not sourced to it, his power comes from the same place Hela’s does, it comes from within himself and his people, it’s on the same level as hears.  Thor is the redemption of Odin’s line, Thor is the inverse image of Hela and she of him.  Where her greed and cruelty only grew, his was erased and nobility grew in its place instead.

I love the ending of Thor: Ragnarok, that Thor may not want the throne, but it only makes him all the more suited to it.  That it’s the next step on the journey his story has taken over the course of these movies, that his people need him and he will sacrifice what needs to be, in order to lead them.  Not because he wants power or fame.  But because it’s right.  It’s finally right.

Thor doesn’t need Mjolnir to show that he is worthy in and of himself.  It was a beautiful weapon, it was more akin to a friend for all the years he had it with him. But it was still ultimately a weapon and Thor does not need it to remind himself to be a good man or a good ruler.  He just simply is.

The opposite of love – ravenbringslight – Thor (Movies) [Archive of Our Own]

raven-brings-light:

Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: Thor (Movies), Marvel Cinematic Universe
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Loki & Thor (Marvel)
Characters: Loki (Marvel), Thor (Marvel)
Additional Tags: Post Ragnarok, ragnarok spoilers, continuation of That Scene, you guys know the one, thor and loki have a lot of feelings, odinson angst, Everyone Needs A Hug, Thorki if you squint
Summary:

Thor is weary.

The opposite of love – ravenbringslight – Thor (Movies) [Archive of Our Own]

lokihiddleston:

Thor at Doctor Strange: “Can I get my brother back?”

   
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Even when Loki is angry his voice is hot

^ True.

Also… maybe they shouldn’t have been so blithe about this, considering the associations Loki probably has with the experience of falling. The movie was mostly pretty good about the callbacks (including Loki’s reaction to Thor getting Hulk-smashed), but this oversight made me a little uncomfortable.