Tag: odin

Why was Loki able to extract Valkyrie’s memory?

led-lite:

philosopherking1887:

This is not something we’ve seen him do before. Not that he would have had any occasion to in previous movies, but this is kind of in a different category from other things he does with magic: mostly illusions, shapeshifting, and moving things around.

This is some wild-ass, blatantly self-interested speculation, but… what if the power to draw out other people’s memories is a relatively new ability that he gained from his interaction with the Mind Stone? Scarlet Witch got her powers from experimentation with the Mind Stone, and one of the things we’ve seen her do is get into people’s heads and make them experience things based on their worst fears and most painful memories.

This at least suggests that forcing people to re-experience memories is one of the things that the Mind Stone can do, in addition to co-opting their will to make them serve the aims of the wielder. I think everyone I know has dismissed the idea that Thanos was controlling Loki the way Loki controlled Barton and Selvig; that’s probably not something you can do to a magically powerful being like Loki. BUT Scarlet Witch was able to do the fear-exploiting thing with Thor, and Loki simultaneously experienced and forced the Valkyrie to re-experience her worst memory – that is something you can do to more powerful beings.

So… this provides some circumstantial evidence in favor of the theory I explore in my fic The Abyss Gazes Also about what happened between Thanos and Loki: that Thanos exploited Loki’s own fears, resentments, and insecurities and forced him to re-experience his most traumatic memories involving his family (especially Thor and Odin) to manipulate him into invading Earth on Thanos’s behalf and fighting against his adoptive family.

Tagging people who read my fic and might care: @angrymadsygin, @darklittlestories, @fuckyeahrichardiii, @iamhisgloriouspurpose, @ikoliholic, @illwynd, @lunariagold, @nursejoh53, @raven-brings-light, @writernotwaiting

@philosopherking1887 Honestly, my inclination as well. It’s not exactly like Loki would have been around to experience this happening so he couldn’t project something that he knew or witnessed, he had to have reached into her mind.

I further thought that Loki may have also been able to blend some of these new powers into whatever the hell he did to Odin because Odin would not have known or expected his son to come at him with these abilities.

(Sidenote, my ‘funny’ head canon is that Odin regaining his mind is what caused the actual destruction of that Shady Acres old folks home, take that or leave it :p)  

Oh, interesting point about Odin. That actually suggests that the Mind Stone allows someone to delete or alter memories, or maybe even implant false ones. I was resisting the idea that that was something Thanos could have done to Loki – even though it’s a much neater explanation of the “I remember you tossing me into an abyss” line – because I thought it would be more interesting, poignant, and ultimately fucked-up if he was able to get Loki to the point he was at in “The Avengers” using only Loki’s own memories and emotions as raw material…

darklittlestories:

pinknoonicorn:

maneth985:

darklittlestories:

incredifishface:

darklittlestories:

More Ragnarok Meta

SPOILERS, obviously.

So, the snake & stab story. Obviously I LIVE for snakes. So I was delighted that Loki shifting SOLIDLY*, into a snake.

And the giggle at mischievous young Loki (I mean, warrior culture? Sibling rivalries involve stabbings, right? lol)

But… BUT: “We were eight.” (I can’t confirm yet that this line wasn’t ‘He was eight’… anyone?)

But I think I heard “We.” Proceeding from there:

This means that Thor & Loki are the same age. Or within a year. That’s a HUGE character revelation. Imagine Loki’s resentment, all the stuff we know, but go back to when we first saw them on screen.

Two young princes, led by their Father-King. “But only one of you will rule.” And by now Loki has (canonically) already at least a seed of malice planted within.

He’s a mage, and a damn fine one to be shapeshifting so young, I’d wager. We know the parallel to Viking culture’s treatment of men perceived as *argr* or *ergi* tracks. We’ve seen Thor and friends mock him for his “tricks.”

So he’s aware of his difference from those warriors. He already feels judged less-than.

But now imagine that a spare few months are all that separates him from—and places him second in ascension order—Thor. How much more acute does that resentment read now?

My heart stings with yet *another* layer of damage to that psyche.

There’s a wealth of characterization to unpack, which is a very pleasant surprise for such a hilarious film, but right now I’m fixated on this narrow perceived-age difference. (Of course we likely will never know if Loki is any younger at all, or if the Jotunn even age analogously to Áesir.)

Somehow for me, knowing they’re closer in age adds so much depth to Loki’s resentment.

And of course their reunion that much sweeter.

Did you hear a ‘we’? Thoughts?

@philosopherking1887

@raven-brings-light

@incredifishface

@lunariagold

@fourletterwordsstartingwithl

@sexualthorientation

@writernotwaiting

*Not an illusion. So many new powers. I’m obsessed. Another post;)

I have to see it again and get back to you on that “we”

HOWEVER

this is one of those times when i am pretty reluctant to take the canon MCU line as it comes. Why? We know there was a lot of improvisation in that film. I seriously doubt there was as much thought put into every word of that snippet of dialogue as we put into our own headcanons. I simply refuse to change my entire headcanon or reassess fanon on the basis of that.

It doesn’t change that much for me either way. We know they’re close in age (see “both born to be kings” scene, similar heights), we don’t know enough about Asgardian/Jotun biology to make a final call on how they develop as kids (for beings that live up to 5000 years “8″ sounds like such a puzzlingly insignificant number), and I think considering these kids are about 1000 years old, and that for all but, like, 5 years or so, they were brothers, allies, lovers, and friends, give or take a stabbing or two, it does not seem a huge turning point in what we know. Even if they had been born months apart, we know Loki resents and loves his brother either way, that his dad favoured his brother either way, etc. 

Loki looks up to Thor like one looks up to an older brother, I think. That’s how I’ ve read and perceived the relationship to be at all times. So, they could have been born on the same day, and that wouldn’t change how Loki looks at Thor and relates to Thor: admiring him, worshipping him, thirsting for him like whoa, wanting to prove himself to him and be on a par with him, and outgrow him. That screams “little brother” to me. Be it age or just, you know, attitude, Thor will always be the older brother to me, and Loki the younger.  And I’m fine with that. 

Oh yeah, I’m not suggesting a retcon of old work of films, but for some reason that just stabbed me in my heart. (Stabbed—eheheheh)

I don’t know why it stood out to me so much. (It might just be because I LOVE AUs where they’re twins.)

But yeah the dynamic is absolutely still big brother/little brother. That’s so evident in this film, and obviously the others.

Very good observation about the improvisation in the movie, though. You’re right—it could be just a throwaway line.

I’m having *such feels* about it I’m sure it’ll inform my stories, but we’re all pretty solidly steeped in little brother psychology for Loki. I’m just gonna be processing shit from the movie for a while:D (Going to see it again later—w00t!)

I don’t take the “we were eight” line at heart, cause for all we know it could’ve been for brevity sake and keep it simple….he could’ve said"when we were little" tho.

I don’t think they have the same age (Loki is, as far as I know, canonically about 1048 yrs old in the first Thor film, btw), but they could be one or two years old apart, which for them is nothing. Their dynamic from day one has always been little brother Loki and big brother Thor, hell at times it seems to be Tom and Chris’s dynamics too which is funny cause Tom’s two years older.

What it did make me realise is how unimportant Loki stabbing and generally beating on Thor is in Avengers, and vice versa, this is how they are with each other. The only time Thor knew Loki wasn’t messing was when he sent the Destroyer to kill him and his friends. In the Avengers it’s a distraction, a way of getting Thor to stop and let him go, it’s not to kill. Same with the perceived “torture” scene in Ragnarok, sorry but Loki stood by while the disc was used on Thor, it wouldn’t have done that much injury to Loki and Thor had had enough. It’s the human equivalent of siblings pushing and shoving, and generally being brats. @incredifishface you won’t see this otherwise, stories will. I think the thing this film did really well, and almost certainly because the actors had so much input, was put everything we’d seen in the previous two films plus the avengers, into perspective. It gave us a foundation we never had. I loved it btw. One thing it did, surprisingly, is make me start to see thor and loki as they are, brothers…but that, and the small amount of fanfic I read atm, is a discussion for another time..

Yeah, ughhh the amount of (platonic? Who here even cares? lol) brotherly feels here DEFINITELY surpasses the previous movies. It’s the best BY FAR in my opinion, actually.

But much more importantly, INFORMATION!!!

How do y’all know Loki’s exact age in the MCU!??? Feed me knowledges!!! I’m thrilled to be proven wrong and with the improv argument I’m already starting to let go of my pangs of “omgggg SAME AGE BBYS!!!!! feels.” 😉

I think we still have license to play it any number of ways. Some people can run with the idea that they were raised as twins: that that’s the way Odin and Frigga explained away the fact that Frigga was never pregnant with Loki (which, as @raven-brings-light has remarked, is an unaddressed issue); that Loki has been doubly wronged because he’s actually a few days older than Thor, but Odin and Frigga called Thor the firstborn because they wanted their biological son to inherit; that part of Loki’s resentment was knowing that it was only a few minutes’ age difference that denied him the throne.

But people who prefer to write Loki as a few years younger than Thor to explain and accentuate the big brother/little brother dynamic between them can still do that too. There’s the fact that there was a lot of improvisation going on. And then there’s also the possibility that Thor just said “8″ as a rough human equivalent to give Bruce an idea of their developmental stage. It may be that Asgardians spend a few years at the equivalent of each year of human childhood, so Thor and Loki were both within the range that roughly matches up to 8 human years, but Thor was at the older end of that range and Loki at the younger. There are ways they could have hidden the fact that Frigga was never pregnant with Loki other than saying he and Thor were twins. A few people have speculated that Frigga lost a pregnancy around the same time, but hid that from the people and claimed that Loki was the product (maybe the miscarriage/stillbirth would have been Balder, and that would be an indirect way of representing myth-Loki’s involvement in Balder’s death). I may be the only one who thinks this, but the fact that it was wartime might have helped with the cover-up: it’s entirely possible that Frigga was in hiding somewhere in the countryside (such as it is) or in Vanaheim or something so that she would be safe in case of a Jotun invasion, so no one except her closest attendants would have known that she wasn’t pregnant before Loki showed up.

@darklittlestories – we know Loki’s exact age because there’s a date given as a subtitle/caption at the beginning of the prologue to the first Thor movie, when Odin is narrating the story of the Jotun invasion of Midgard and the Asgard’s intervention.

curds-and-wheyface:

philosopherking1887:

curds-and-wheyface:

Odin, his wife and his children: A Theory.

[Thor: Ragnarok spoilers within]

I’ve seen some posts about how Loki and Hela look alike and people are all “Sorry Thor, who was adopted again?” and I get that it’s tongue in cheek but still, it got me itching to make this post.

Basically – I feel like we can all assume Hela was pre-Frigga, right?? She sure as hell ain’t Frigga’s.

Odin loved Frigga, she was so precious to him and she was so good, there’s just no way she’d have sat back and let Odin take their kid off to cruelly conquer all those realms as described by Hela.

So we can surely only assume that he was happily pillaging realms with his daughter at his side right up until the moment he laid eyes on beautiful, compassionate Frigga. And. You know. He’s just getting a bit old for all of this, isn’t he? He’d like to settle down with the love of a good woman.

So he pulls back a bit from the pillaging, he’s trying to woo this stunning creature who’s so kind-of-heart and caring that there’s no way she’ll accept him unless he becomes a more benevolent leader, more gentle, more a protector of realms than a destroyer of realms, and he finds that he totally cool with that. It’s doable.

Only his kid’s like “Oh, Hel no.”

All thirsty for blood and battle and victory, just as he raised her. But she doesn’t fit his aesthetic now that he’s trying to be A Good King TM.

So he puts his kid in a box and starts again. Slate wiped. Together Odin and his new wife have a golden-haired boy, takes after his mum. Odin’s going to do it right this time, he’s going to raise this boy up good and strong and kind.

Except he can’t quite forget his first born, who he did love despite her failure to fall inline with his changing idealogy, and so when he finds that little baby on Jotunheim, helpless and alone, and decides to extend his newfound kindness to him…

Well. Maybe it’s no real coincidence that the glamour he gave him looks just a little bit like his firstborn.

I’m not at all sure that Loki’s Aesir appearance is a glamor that Odin put on him, though. I favor the theory that he’s a born shapeshifter and his instinct was to take on a form that his rescuer would find appealing and that would motivate him to care for baby Loki. So why did he end up looking the way he did? 3 possibilities: (1) that’s just how his Jotun genotype translated into Aesir phenotype; (2) he transformed into what a biological son of Odin might have looked like; (3) he took on an appearance that resembled Odin’s lost child.

To be honest I’ve long dismissed the notion that the glamour was Loki’s because I assume that the chains on him at the start of TDW are designed to suppress his magic (what’s the point of them if they don’t?) and the glamour remains firmly in place.

The theory to which I allude is one according to which the shapeshifting between Jotun and Aesir is not a glamour at all, but something more fundamental that can’t be suppressed the way his illusion magic can. Maybe that seems too ad hoc for some people. But in any case I don’t think it makes sense to consider it a glamour, i.e., something merely appearance-based, because it seems that the reason Loki shifted partly back into a Frost Giant when another Frost Giant grabbed his arm on Jotunheim was to protect him from frostbite. If he was always a Jotun on the cellular level and only looked Aesir because of Odin’s glamour, his appearance wouldn’t have needed to change. Maybe it was Odin who transformed his body rather than his body changing on its own.

curds-and-wheyface:

Odin, his wife and his children: A Theory.

[Thor: Ragnarok spoilers within]

I’ve seen some posts about how Loki and Hela look alike and people are all “Sorry Thor, who was adopted again?” and I get that it’s tongue in cheek but still, it got me itching to make this post.

Basically – I feel like we can all assume Hela was pre-Frigga, right?? She sure as hell ain’t Frigga’s.

Odin loved Frigga, she was so precious to him and she was so good, there’s just no way she’d have sat back and let Odin take their kid off to cruelly conquer all those realms as described by Hela.

So we can surely only assume that he was happily pillaging realms with his daughter at his side right up until the moment he laid eyes on beautiful, compassionate Frigga. And. You know. He’s just getting a bit old for all of this, isn’t he? He’d like to settle down with the love of a good woman.

So he pulls back a bit from the pillaging, he’s trying to woo this stunning creature who’s so kind-of-heart and caring that there’s no way she’ll accept him unless he becomes a more benevolent leader, more gentle, more a protector of realms than a destroyer of realms, and he finds that he totally cool with that. It’s doable.

Only his kid’s like “Oh, Hel no.”

All thirsty for blood and battle and victory, just as he raised her. But she doesn’t fit his aesthetic now that he’s trying to be A Good King TM.

So he puts his kid in a box and starts again. Slate wiped. Together Odin and his new wife have a golden-haired boy, takes after his mum. Odin’s going to do it right this time, he’s going to raise this boy up good and strong and kind.

Except he can’t quite forget his first born, who he did love despite her failure to fall inline with his changing idealogy, and so when he finds that little baby on Jotunheim, helpless and alone, and decides to extend his newfound kindness to him…

Well. Maybe it’s no real coincidence that the glamour he gave him looks just a little bit like his firstborn.

I’m not at all sure that Loki’s Aesir appearance is a glamor that Odin put on him, though. I favor the theory that he’s a born shapeshifter and his instinct was to take on a form that his rescuer would find appealing and that would motivate him to care for baby Loki. So why did he end up looking the way he did? 3 possibilities: (1) that’s just how his Jotun genotype translated into Aesir phenotype; (2) he transformed into what a biological son of Odin might have looked like; (3) he took on an appearance that resembled Odin’s lost child.

regarding “we were eight”

raven-brings-light:

I’ve often wondered how Odin and Frigga passed Loki off as their child when it had to have been obvious that Frigga wasn’t pregnant a second time. One option I’d idly entertained in the past was that Odin brought Loki back just as Frigga was giving birth to Thor and they’re like “WOOPS LOOKS LIKE IT WAS TWINS”…but they still called Thor the “firstborn” because one of the twins had to have been born first…and I bet Thor would really rub it in and call Loki his little brother all the time…and Loki would be gritting his teeth like “BY SEVEN MINUTES YOU OAF.”

Also, if that was true, the kind of ironic thing would be Loki may actually have been born first.

ANYWAY.

Pointless (probably wrong) speculation, brought to mind again by that bit of dialogue. 😀

thorkizilla:

Thor (2011) + Thor: Ragnarok (2017):

Thor: There won’t be a kingdom to protect if you’re afraid to act! The Jotuns must learn to fear me, just as they once feared you!
Odin: That’s pride and vanity talking, not leadership. You’ve forgotten everything I taught you about a warrior’s patience.
Thor: While you wait, and be patient, the Nine Realms laugh at us. The old ways are done! You’d stand giving speeches while Asgard falls!
Odin: You are a vain, greedy, cruel boy!
Thor:  And you are an old man and a fool!
Odin: Yes, I was a fool to think you were ready. Thor Odinson, you have betrayed the express command of your king. Through your arrogance and stupidity, you have opened these peaceful realms and innocent lives to the horror and desolation of war! You are unworthy of these realms! You’re unworthy of your title! You are unworthy of the loved ones you have betrayed. I now take from you your power! In the name of my father and his father before, I, Odin Allfather, cast you out!

WHOEVER HOLDS THIS HAMMER, IF HE BE WORTHY, SHALL POSSESS THE HAMMER OF THOR.

Hela’s use of Mjolnir once upon a time lends a whole new context to what Thor’s arc over his movies + the Avengers movies already was–his story is one of an immensely powerful god who must either learn to wield it with care towards others or be lost to evil and violence and cruelty, not only himself but everyone else around him.  It lends an entirely new context to Odin’s reaction to Thor’s fight on Jotunheim and his words–words that must have been so much an echo of what Hela may have said once upon a time.

The realms must learn to fear her, just like her father.  That he only sits there now and is a fool not to bring the other Realms under the hell of Asgard.  And, just as he did with such a heavy heart, he had to cast her out, her violence and cruelty and vanity too much to bear.

Then again he must do the same with Thor.

Where Thor is different (and we do not know how many chances Odin gave Hela, though, she would not have wanted them or used them) is that he finds the strength to look around him when he’s pulled up short.  That he becomes worthy of the hammer, that he becomes the great man and great king that his people need him to be.

He rules without Mjolnir, because his power is not sourced to it, his power comes from the same place Hela’s does, it comes from within himself and his people, it’s on the same level as hears.  Thor is the redemption of Odin’s line, Thor is the inverse image of Hela and she of him.  Where her greed and cruelty only grew, his was erased and nobility grew in its place instead.

I love the ending of Thor: Ragnarok, that Thor may not want the throne, but it only makes him all the more suited to it.  That it’s the next step on the journey his story has taken over the course of these movies, that his people need him and he will sacrifice what needs to be, in order to lead them.  Not because he wants power or fame.  But because it’s right.  It’s finally right.

Thor doesn’t need Mjolnir to show that he is worthy in and of himself.  It was a beautiful weapon, it was more akin to a friend for all the years he had it with him. But it was still ultimately a weapon and Thor does not need it to remind himself to be a good man or a good ruler.  He just simply is.