kingloptr:

philosopherking1887:

These people insisting that when Loki let go at the end of “Thor 1,” he knew he would survive – that it wasn’t a suicide attempt, just a bid to get out of hot water – have they been around since 2011-12, or is this a post-“Ragnarok” phenomenon?

When I see people express that belief, I always think of how Thor and Odin know just as much

(if not more-so.. Loki only just learned his genetics)

as Loki does about what he and his body are capable of surviving. And if they both genuinely believed he was dead after that (which I gotta remind people was not JUST falling into ‘a void’ it was into a really fucked up wormhole warped into existence by the destruction of the Bifrost and all the debris from that powerful technology…), then chances were not high that it was survivable even for someone with his skills, and Loki would’ve guessed that too.

Loki didn’t care about the consequences. He cared about Odin’s approval. With Odin’s final words of disapproval, it was enough for Loki to give up entirely. Loki was denied the one thing that he really wanted so he let go. It was very much a suicide attempt.

Loki may concoct elaborate plans, but there’s little evidence that he planned on surviving his fall. It just so happened by chance that he did, and Loki being Loki he played along with it as if he planned it and as if he’s been in control all along. From then on he just uses this trauma to try to manipulate people.

e.g. Loki trying to manipulate Thor by saying Thor tossed him into the abyss or using his story to win the favor of new allies.

…but make no mistake, folks, Loki intended on ending it all in that moment.

From then on he just uses this trauma to try to manipulate people.

e.g. Loki trying to manipulate Thor by saying Thor tossed him into the abyss or using his story to win the favor of new allies.

I don’t think I’m on board with that interpretation. I don’t think “I remember you tossing me into an abyss” was Loki lying to manipulate Thor into feeling guilty, because if he remembered what actually happened, he would know that the distortion of the facts was too obvious for that to work—and sure enough, Thor comes back at him about “imagined slights.” I think Loki’s memories got screwed with in some way, possibly involving Thanos using the Mind Stone to amplify his resentment toward his former family, or possibly just involving a lot of shame and repression. But he seems to have had enough time to recover since then that he straightened out his own account of what happened.

I’m still wrestling with the “using his story to win the favor of new allies” thing. The fact that he was telling it for laughs still makes me a little uncomfortable, but yes, I’ve been getting a lot of people saying that they joke about their trauma to regain power over it, and I do that too, so OK. I’d hesitate to call it “using his trauma to manipulate people,” though. He found a way to turn it into a good story, which probably includes changing a lot of facts about the lead-up and pretending it wasn’t traumatic, and he’s using it to impress people on Sakaar.

These people insisting that when Loki let go at the end of “Thor 1,” he knew he would survive – that it wasn’t a suicide attempt, just a bid to get out of hot water – have they been around since 2011-12, or is this a post-“Ragnarok” phenomenon?

What do you think of Loki laughing about his fall when Thor meets GM for the first time? I think it was stupid and shallow of T.W to do. It was a bad experience for him and he just laugh?

foundlingmother:

satanssyn-n-things:

I actually don’t think it was stupid and shallow, let me tell you why. Note where Loki is – a place where the high class people are those who laugh at the misery of those below them. They laugh and enjoy the torment of others, he was not making fun of himself when he laughs after saying ‘Then, I let go’, he is Loki, he is blending in, making himself a new life, becoming one of ‘them’ – remember, he thinks Thor is dead at this point, he is doing what he can and playing with the sadists who laugh at the trauma and pain of others.

He is surviving, as he does with Thanos, as he does in the prison in Asgard, he survives. To be high class, he has to turn himself into a person who is a hunger games loving sadist or he ends up like Thor – in an arena where he has no hopes of lasting.

Hope this was what you were looking for : ) Thanks for the ask

I really, really, really like this. It’s a great point, and it’s the first thing that’s made me feel a bit comfortable with Loki laughing about his fall.

#though i’m not sure i’d assume we were meant to get that from the scene #because of how other serious moments from the previous movies were handled

Fair point, @foundlingmother… this is one of the few circumstances where I take full advantage of the “death of the author” principle: in fanfiction, at least, I’m going to assume an explanation like the one @satanssyn-n-things offers, where Loki is laughing at his own pain because he needs to in order to survive. But I am certainly not ready to give the actual creators of the movie that much credit… except maybe Hiddleston himself, because he seems to be the only one who sees Loki’s pain as worth taking seriously.

foundlingmother:

illwynd:

raven-brings-light:

foundlingmother:

raven-brings-light:

foundlingmother:

icyxmischief:

hela:

What would you like me to say?

Isn’t it great how later in this movie Thor accuses Loki of never wanting to move forward and communicate but right here when he tries, earnestly, to do so, Thor shuts him down. Isn’t that great.

Isn’t it great how people talk about this scene like Loki’s just goading Thor and not being genuine? Isn’t that just great? I mean, he’s actually:

Loki: It hurts, doesn’t it? Being lied
to. Being told you’re one thing and
then learning it’s all a fiction.

Attempting to begin a conversation about the numerous lies their father told them. One lie in particular. The big one. The lie Thor has yet to condemn Odin for.

Loki: Look, I couldn’t jeopardize my
position with Grandmaster, it took
me time to win his trust. He’s a
lunatic, but he can be amenable.

Providing Thor with a very reasonable explanation for why he couldn’t help him.

Loki: Does this mean you don’t want my
help?

Loki: What I’m telling you is, you could
join me at the Grandmaster’s side.

Offering to help Thor get on the Grandmaster’s good side.

Loki: Perhaps, in time, an accident
befalls the Grandmaster, and
then…

Loki gestures: “we take over.”

Letting Thor in on his plan to take over Sakaar.

Loki: You’re not seriously thinking of
going back, are you? Our sister
destroyed your hammer like a piece
of glass. She’s stronger than both
of us. She’s stronger than you.
You don’t stand a chance. Do you
understand what I’m saying to you?

Expressing concern for Thor’s life. Openly worrying about Thor returning to fight Hela.

And then, only once Thor’s ignored all of that and thrown pebbles at him the whole time, spouting bullshit about going in alone, trying to goad Thor into saying something. And when that doesn’t work, rather than continuing to goad, he demands Thor say something, uncharacteristically revealing just how much it’s bugging him that Thor has said nothing.

So… I guess that means Thor is 100% right, and he’s the only brother who really wants to repair their relationship. I mean, it’s not possible for the hero to be at all flawed, short-sighted, consumed by grief, and assigning blame to people who don’t deserve it in this circumstance. Characters with realistic reactions to grief? What’s that? Sounds made up. No, Thor’s the good guy, and that means every word out of his mouth is gospel. (Norse Jesus.)

I would love this scene if it heralded character development, but instead it’s just there, making Loki out to be wrong even when he’s being calm, reasonable, and vulnerable with Thor, and contradicting scenes that come later. Oh, and teasing us with an actual conversation about the family drama, which the movie never delivers.

I read this scene differently when I saw it. I didn’t see it as Loki being wrong and Thor being right, but about their flawed relationship.

Yes, Loki is being relatively calm, reasonable, and vulnerable for the first part of the conversation. But From Thor’s point of view, he’s basically had no time to talk to Loki in years – first Loki lied to him for no ostensibly good reason and then and tried to kill him and then himself (thor 1), then Loki tried to take over Earth (avengers), then Loki managed to cheat death but instead of telling Thor about it he let him grieve AGAIN and he hid and banished Odin (and, in Thor’s mind, was instrumental in his death). Also, Loki has had weeks here in Sakaar coming to terms with the latest turn of events, but for Thor it’s been less than a day since he both got Loki back and lost his father. So, yes, Loki is momentarily pretending all that other stuff didn’t happen and is being nice RIGHT NOW but Thor is not in the mood to particularly give a shit or to be nice himself, and honestly if I were in his place I’d probably react the same way – no matter HOW earnest Loki was being in the first part of the conversation, which he was.

I did like this scene, because it showed how much Loki still cares about what Thor thinks of him, and because it showed that Thor *isn’t* perfect.

Basically, these two just need to be locked in a room together and not allowed out until they vent all their aggression and then actually TALK about everything that’s happened since Thor’s failed coronation. (and then hug it out)

Tl;Dr Thor isn’t perfect, he’s pissed.

I agree with everything you said @raven-brings-light. That’s why I would have liked this scene if they movie had readdressed it. Of course Thor’s not in the mood. This, to me, seems like a completely normal reaction for Thor to have given everything that’s happened. I guess it might have been lost somewhat in my snark, but that’s what I meant when I mentioned consumed by grief. This wasn’t a criticism of Thor.

My issue is with the movie, not Thor. I love a flawed Thor. Flawed heroes are my jam. It’s the movie that never says “Remember when Thor blamed Loki for Odin’s death and Hela’s return in that one scene? He was grieving then. Loki’s not really responsible for that.” It’s the movie that suggests Thor and Loki’s relationship problems are primarily perpetuated by Loki’s character flaws (which certainly play a role, don’t get me wrong), rather than something they’re both responsible for, both because of their actions and failures to communicate with one another.

The scene itself is great from the standpoint that it’s actually as close as we get to showing the nuance of their relationship. It’s letdown by the rest of the movie, which fails to reexamine Thor’s flaws, and thus tricks members of the audience into overlooking them. As I mentioned, I usually see this scene discussed as Thor doing the right thing by ignoring a Loki that’s just needling/goading him, when it seemed so obvious to me that wasn’t what happened.

So I was thinking about this in the car just now, and actually the more I think about it, I don’t even know if Thor approached this the wrong way at all.

Loki’s initial *words* are truthful, yes, but I don’t believe he’s offering them in the spirit of reconciliation. I think he’s been hanging on by the skin of his teeth in this hellhole, and when Thor showed up he breathed a sigh of relief – THANK GOD, THOR CAN HELP GET ME OUT OF THIS MESS. So he’s being “nice” in order to get Thor to work with him to get them (and by extension, HIM) out of hot water.

And Thor IS pissed, and sees it for what it is, a cheap play to his emotions. And when he stays silent, Loki DOES start goading/needling, because being ignored is what he hates more than ANYTHING ELSE.

(btw all of this should all be read in a tone of friendly discussion! I just like to hash things out! no personal animosity here!)

Yeah idk, I don’t think I wholly agree with that take on it, but honestly this movie is such a mess for anything to do with Thor and Loki’s characterization and particularly their relationship with each other that all we can do is extrapolate and try to make sense of things that don’t make sense in the film. But given the fact that Loki’s first words to Thor when they meet on Sakaar are a legitimately surprised “you’re alive?!” yes, I can agree with the notion that Loki has been hanging on, hating this place but trapped there, and now he’s got his hopes pinned on Thor. But I don’t see his words as insincere in the way I think you mean it? Like, he knows Thor is pissed at him for ALL THE THINGS and… it would be humiliating, in the face of that, to express what he’s actually feeling–the desperation for Thor’s company and good opinion after so long, the relief that the person he cares about most in the universe is not actually dead, the ancient impulse to stick by Thor like glue–so he’s playing it cool, feeling out the situation so if Thor rebuffs him he can try something else without having completely shown his hand.

And I don’t blame Thor for not letting Loki off the hook that easily. Thor is quite reasonably upset, and eagerly going along with Loki’s plan, showing a willingness to reconcile… would have sure made Loki feel better in the moment but it wouldn’t have done Thor much good, and it wouldn’t have really helped get to the root of their issues either. So yeah I’m not blaming Thor at all for his reactions here.

Personally, my issue with it is that the movie utterly drops the ball after this point and basically forgets this interaction, ignores what their issues are, and instead slots in whatever is needed to make the characters do what the plot requires, no matter how inconsistent or out of the blue it is. So we never actually get to know how this would play out between them because it, well, doesn’t. And consequently, it leaves this scene feeling incomplete and unsatisfying in retrospect.

^^^^^^^^^^

Thanks @illwynd. I think you communicated pretty much my thoughts much better than I did.

When I say Thor has character flaws, it’s more in the sense that he isn’t Norse Jesus, forgiving and Good™ the way I sometimes see fandom talking about him. I think Thor doesn’t always have to be the one reaching out, willing to forgive, being nothing but nice to a cruel, impossible to talk to Loki in all their interactions, for him to be the good guy. Yet, I see their interactions reduced a lot to Thor doing the right/good thing and Loki doing the wrong/bad thing, including this one. My snark was directed at that, and the point of my post was to look at Loki’s lines in the first part of this scene, and point out that most of them are genuine attempts to reach out to Thor, not goading. It’s ok for Loki to reach out once in a while. He can still be a bad guy (or morally ambiguous, if you prefer, which I do).

I think what you said about Thor, how it wouldn’t have done him any good, is quite insightful. Reconciliation needs to happen on both their terms, not on Loki or Thor’s terms. The reconciliation attempt made by Thor in the beginning of Avengers is a great example of one offered on Thor’s terms. He asks Loki to come home, but he doesn’t acknowledge why Loki… left, and even calls Loki’s slights imagined. Here, all the power is reversed. It’s Loki saying “Go along with my plan, Thor. Let’s talk about the lie Odin told me, Thor.” Genuine, but only on Loki’s terms, and now Loki’s ready.

I am in complete agreement with @foundlingmother and @illwynd on this, including the fact that the movie failed to acknowledge that Loki was the one holding out an olive branch here—not very graciously, to be sure—and Thor swatted it down. If Thor gets credit for reaching out to Loki in the scene from The Avengers where he uses the phrase “imagined slights,” Loki should get credit for this. Which is not to say that I blame Thor for turning him down—any more than I blame Loki for turning Thor down in The Avengers.

@raven-brings-light, what did you see as a cheap play to Thor’s emotions? I don’t think that’s what the “It hurts, doesn’t it? Being lied to” line was. I think that was Loki trying—again, very ungraciously—to get Thor to acknowledge the wrongs that had been done to Loki.

led-lite:

philosopherking1887:

foundlingmother:

philosopherking1887:

foundlingmother:

philosopherking1887:

toomanylokifeels:

I wonder if Loki thought about when he was falling through the abyss when Strange left him falling for thirty minutes

HOLY SHIT ME TOO

I was definitely bothered that they were being so cavalier about something that’s plausibly a PTSD trigger for him. But I guess he’s over it now, right? Because he was telling that clearly *hilarious* story to his new friends on Sakaar that ended with “and then I let go.”

HOLY SHIT?!

I did not even catch what story he was telling on Sakaar? He was telling them about his suicide attempt? What the fuck?!

From the shooting script (available here, among other places): “There was a wormhole in space and time beneath me. At that moment, I let go.”

New headcanon: Loki is telling the people of Sakaar about something that isn’t his fucking suicide attempt. Let’s say he’s telling them about some adventure he, Thor, Sif, and the Warriors Three had where Loki had to save everyone (perhaps he’s exaggerating, perhaps not). Yeah, that sounds good to me.

The best I can make of it is what you and some others have done with the horrible play: call it a really weird coping strategy.

I thought prettying up his story of how he wandered onto literal trash dump planet was a maneuver to charm the locals tbh

Ah, so you thought he was telling it so that the suicide attempt was how he ended up on Sakaar, rather than getting pushed out of the Bifrost? Yeah, I can see how that might be more dramatic and compelling. Still not sure why everyone laughs. Maybe he told it as his escape from a horrible situation, expecting to survive rather than trying to die.

foundlingmother:

philosopherking1887:

foundlingmother:

philosopherking1887:

toomanylokifeels:

I wonder if Loki thought about when he was falling through the abyss when Strange left him falling for thirty minutes

HOLY SHIT ME TOO

I was definitely bothered that they were being so cavalier about something that’s plausibly a PTSD trigger for him. But I guess he’s over it now, right? Because he was telling that clearly *hilarious* story to his new friends on Sakaar that ended with “and then I let go.”

HOLY SHIT?!

I did not even catch what story he was telling on Sakaar? He was telling them about his suicide attempt? What the fuck?!

From the shooting script (available here, among other places): “There was a wormhole in space and time beneath me. At that moment, I let go.”

New headcanon: Loki is telling the people of Sakaar about something that isn’t his fucking suicide attempt. Let’s say he’s telling them about some adventure he, Thor, Sif, and the Warriors Three had where Loki had to save everyone (perhaps he’s exaggerating, perhaps not). Yeah, that sounds good to me.

The best I can make of it is what you and some others have done with the horrible play: call it a really weird coping strategy.

foundlingmother:

philosopherking1887:

toomanylokifeels:

I wonder if Loki thought about when he was falling through the abyss when Strange left him falling for thirty minutes

HOLY SHIT ME TOO

I was definitely bothered that they were being so cavalier about something that’s plausibly a PTSD trigger for him. But I guess he’s over it now, right? Because he was telling that clearly *hilarious* story to his new friends on Sakaar that ended with “and then I let go.”

HOLY SHIT?!

I did not even catch what story he was telling on Sakaar? He was telling them about his suicide attempt? What the fuck?!

From the shooting script (available here, among other places): “There was a wormhole in space and time beneath me. At that moment, I let go.”

toomanylokifeels:

I wonder if Loki thought about when he was falling through the abyss when Strange left him falling for thirty minutes

HOLY SHIT ME TOO

I was definitely bothered that they were being so cavalier about something that’s plausibly a PTSD trigger for him. But I guess he’s over it now, right? Because he was telling that clearly *hilarious* story to his new friends on Sakaar that ended with “and then I let go.”

saw ur letter to fandom post and was reading through the comments. someone mentioned talking about loki being responsible for odins death. didn’t mean much to the post itself, but i wondered about ur opinion. do u think loki killed odin?

foundlingmother:

philosopherking1887:

Better tag @sarah1281 on this one because it was her comment. I do think Loki had some culpability – maybe not in Odin’s death as such, but in the manner of it, and of course the fact that he didn’t have the opportunity to warn them about Hela. But no, I don’t think Loki killed Odin. I think Odin was very old and tired, had been putting off Odinsleep too much, and was devastated by the death of Frigga, his companion, advisor, and love. I suspect that he was also hollowed out by his thorough failure with Loki, and the fact that Loki was so angry with him that he was willing to wipe his memory, banish him, and usurp the throne. To the extent that that’s the case, Loki is indirectly responsible, but I do think it’s also Odin’s recognition of his own failure, which isn’t exactly Loki’s fault.

I wouldn’t assign much blame to Loki for Odin being unable to tell them about Hela. He had many years to do so. Loki’s responsible for Odin not being able to warn them from 2013 to 2017 (and based on his previous silence, and how little he actually tells them, I’m not convinced he would have warned them much further in advance).

And since I was part of that initial conversation that @sarah1281 was referring to, I feel it’s important to clarify my point of view. It aligns with @philosopherking1887′s. Furthermore, I wouldn’t list Odin’s death as one of Loki’s crimes, and I take issue not with Thor blaming Loki (I think it’s a perfectly reasonable reaction to losing a loved one), but to the movie suggesting he’s correct when he says “You did this.” There’s a difference between a character searching for someone to blame for a loss (an irrational, but normal reaction to tragedy), and a film agreeing with that character, and presenting no room for a discussion. To tie it back into the post the anon was reading, I think it highlights one of the weaknesses in Ragnarok that they introduce, but never address, this particular reaction Thor has to his father’s passing. Ragnarok does a decent job of acknowledging the family conflicts, and even comes up with a few that make perfect sense, but it doesn’t pay them off well, if at all (see how Loki’s heritage is brought up and completely ignored in a handful of seconds). Some of that’s the tone of the movie, and some of it’s a disregard for the previous films.

I rewatched Thor last night. I hadn’t seen it in a while. I didn’t really like it before. I thought the larger than life good guys were a bit sloppily depicted, but I enjoyed it much better this time after having read your musings on Loki’s psychology during the drama. I can appreciate it now. And when Loki falls into space, we can say goodbye to that characterization. I like Joss’ flamboyant sexy bad guy characterization, but it distort the character away from his Shakespearean complexity.

Well, as many of my readers/blog followers know, I think there are ways to square the tragic Shakespearean anti-villain in Thor with the (apparently) flamboyant sexy bad guy in The Avengers, and my longest ongoing work of fanfiction is an effort to do just that. Loki’s time in the Void definitely changed him; it hardened him in certain ways, but clearly he has also fallen under Thanos’s power in some way or other and remains vulnerable. His loyalty to his family and Asgard (though not Odin) was also recoverable, apparently, so whatever happened didn’t completely turn him evil.

Whedon was deliberately leaving open a possibility for redemption by showing Loki as under threat from Thanos, and not just violent and power-mad but fearful. He also showed that Loki was conflicted, and genuinely tempted by Thor’s offers of affection and salvation. Ultimately, I think Whedon came closer than anyone else to approximating the classical tone of the first Thor, though The Avengers was more epic than tragedy.