Sorry for not answering this sooner, I had to think about it, haha. I really enjoy the concept of pre-Thor Loki because there is just so much we don’t know about who Loki was before everything went to shit. We have a basic idea of his general personality, of course – the envious younger brother, the mischief-maker, the less-favored prince. Even despite these attributes, though, Loki clearly holds Thor in high regard (”sometimes I’m envious, but never doubt I love you”) and never meant for things to go as far as they did.
When I think about pre-Thor Loki, the quote I always come back to is when Kenneth Branagh states (in his commentary on the Vault scene): “This is the moment where the thin steel rod that’s been holding your brain together snaps.” Truly, this moment is life-altering and devastating for Loki, but Branagh implies that Loki’s mind was fractured to begin with. We don’t generally think of healthy brains as being “held together with thin steel rods,” and it begs the question, why was Loki so unstable in the first place? Certainly as a result of his upbringing, as far as I can guess. (Whether or not mental illness is inherent in his brain chemistry is a different question, but it bears mentioning that mental illness includes conditions like anxiety, depression, etc, and that these conditions can be a result of one’s upbringing.)
I (like so many others) take such issue with Thor calling Loki’s grievances imagined slights because they are very much not imagined and, if anything, they are the worst kind of slights because by nature they are designed to break a person down steadily over time. If you tell a dog it’s bad enough times, the dog will eventually believe it. In the first twenty or thirty minutes of Thor, if we include deleted scenes, we see Loki being openly laughed at by a servant (!!), admitting he’s envious but telling Thor he loves him anyway, only to get a “Thank you” in response (without any reassurance of Thor’s feelings in return), a nasty comment from Volstagg on the rainbow bridge about Loki’s silver tongue, and Thor snapping for Loki to “know your place” when Loki tries to talk Thor down from literally starting an intergalactic incident.
Furthermore, after Thor’s banishment, Loki admits that he told the guard of their plans. It’s important to note that he’s not being sneaky or underhanded – he straight up admitted, “yeah, I told them we were going, and I’m not sorry because Thor is out of control and his idea was fucking stupid.” And what’s his payback? As soon as he leaves, the Warriors 4 talk about him behind his back, say he’s always been jealous of Thor, and wonder out loud if Loki is the traitor Laufey spoke of. Why would they immediately assume that Loki is a traitor to his family and his kingdom? Like, that escalated really fucking quickly.
All of these things show us that Loki is treated as less than, for no real reason other than he’s very different from Thor. Different, in Asgard, seems to mean, not as good as. The narrative tells us we should just accept this treatment of Loki because he turns out to be the villain (although the argument has been made, many times, that his actions weren’t villanous at this point – but, I digress) so one can assume that the same is true of Asgard – everyone should just accept that this is how Loki is treated, everyone is used to Loki being the punching bag, and no one should feel badly about it.
I don’t even think I’m answering your question right, I’m sorry, but what I’m trying to get at is, if this is the sort of treatment we see Loki getting just in the beginning of the movie, imagine a (very, very long) lifetime of the same sort of treatment. Imagine how broken down someone would have to be after that. Even if Loki’s upbringing wasn’t bad, in that he was privileged with wealth and title and family and all of that, it was definitely emotionally abusive. And I think that it’s very possible to feel like you have a nice life, to feel like other people have it worse than you, to feel like you deserve all of the imagined slights heaped upon you, until you snap. This is why Loki was hanging onto mental stability by a thread. This is why he suffers a complete mental breakdown – because, in addition to this toxic environment and mindset he’s been conditioned into, now he learns that he is something he’s been taught to believe is savage and disgusting and inferior. He loses all hope of ever being worthy, which makes him double down on his efforts to attain that worthiness. In his heart, maybe he knows it’s a lost cause, and maybe that’s why he fights so hard for it, anyway.
So, did he have safe havens? Probably. He probably holed up in the library with his books and scrolls, or maybe he had a favorite reading spot in the gardens, or maybe he liked to lay in the grass and watch the stars. Did he have secrets, things that were only his? Most definitely, as Loki in general (I think) is a private person who wants things to keep for his own, things that he doesn’t have to share with Thor. Did he hang out with Thor’s friends for obligation? No, I think that at first, he really wanted to be a part of their group. They’re all shown to be so close in age and class (except Volstagg, who seems older) that it seems like these are the people he should be friends with, and would be friends with, were he just more like Thor. I’m sure, eventually, he realized that they didn’t like him (and he didn’t really like them, either) but it was probably also a situation where Loki didn’t have any other friends, so he might as well hang out with the ones who tolerated him, sometimes, sort of.
Sorry for babbling at you and I don’t know if that answered your question or not, but I have a lot of Feels about Loki’s treatment in the first movie, and also the implications it has on his life beforehand. Thank you for the ask!
Almost gave up with this halfway through, it really wasn’t working. Stuck with it though, kept coming back to it and having a look, and I’m really pleased I did! It’s taught me to stop abandoning my artwork if it feels as though it’s not good enough. All I needed to do was just spend more time on it. 🙂
I’m not sure I agree Loki ever really wanted the/a throne, even after he discovered his entire life was a lie. The throne is more a symbol or a means to achieve what Loki actually wants at any given moment.
In the latter half of Thor, that’s acceptance and validation from Odin. He works so hard to keep Thor away because, as regent, Loki has the power to defeat the Frost Giants without costing Asgard anything. He thinks that defeating this enemy will prove he’s worthy, and that he belongs on Asgard. That he’s not one of those monsters…
In Avengers, Loki says he wants to rule Midgard, but it seems far more likely that he’s trying to hurt Thor, embarrass Odin, and above all free himself from Thanos. Others will argue that Loki’s trying to lose. Either way, he doesn’t actually want to rule Midgard. At the same time, this is when he begins repeating that he was the rightful King of Asgard, that he was promised a throne, etc. But, again, it’s not the throne Loki cares about, it’s the injustice of being promised something no one ever had any intention of giving him. Being promised his father’s approval, his people’s acceptance, worthiness (or the opportunity to receive it, at least), only to discover that what you are is entirely incompatible with everything you ever wanted. So he harps on about a throne–about that part of the lie–because it allows him to appear detached. He’s much less vulnerable demanding power than he is demanding acceptance, especially when he doesn’t even believe he’s worthy of that acceptance (internalized racism is a bitch).
The deleted scene from TDW contributes to that idea. The fantasy isn’t about ruling or holding power, it’s about the people celebrating him (the way they do Thor). It’s about being worthy. Loki does get the throne again at the end of TDW, but he usurps it because he wants freedom and safety, and he can get that by masquerading as Odin. And even then he offers it to Thor. He might have anticipated that Thor would reject, but he still offered the choice.
None of the things you mentioned can be considered as torture. Loki dropped Thor with the glass cage right after he saw that Mjolnir could crack the glass. The reason Thor stopped attempting to break the glass wasn’t because the glass was unbreakable, but because the cage would fall if he continued. So Loki knewThor could free himself before the cage hit the ground. Yes, Loki lied to Thor about Odin’s death and he almost killed him with that backhand and IMO these are very horrible and
the worst things he ever did to Thor. Still they are not torture. He broke Thor with his lies but those lies showed Thor that the consequences of his actions can be very grave. Also an argument can be made that if Loki really wanted Thor dead, he would incinerate him with the destroyer not backhand him. The only time Loki really stabbed Thor was in The Avengers. They were fighting, and it was a stab to the gut not the chest and it was with a really small blade that didn’t harm Thor that much. The stab in TDW was an illusion(again that was a stab to the gut), because when he lifted the illusion Thor’s armor was intact while in The Avengers, Thor’s armor remained torn after the stab.
No one said Thor shouldn’t have stopped Loki from betraying him. But Thor could simply make Loki unconscious with the obedience disk(I explained in this post that the device has two settings). That would be acceptable. But Thor chose to leave Loki in constant pain with the device on for an infinite amount of time. Yes, Thor and Loki are called gods and they are more durable. But just because they can tolerate more pain, it doesn’t make it ok to inflict pain on them. It’s still pain and the obedience disc is a torture device. And no Thor had no way of knowing that Loki could get out of it. In fact he knew Loki couldn’t free himself. Thor with all his power, was paralyzed by the obedience disc. Even his lightning couldn’t get him free from it. Only the control device could free Loki. And he was unable to move.
What is torture?
“The action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure
of the person inflicting the pain.”
Thor didn’t just stopped Loki’s betrayal. He inflicted severe pain on him for an infinite amount of time
as punishment for his betrayal and then had the audacity to gleefully preach Loki about growth and change and laugh at his pain.
What Thor did in TR was torture and that makes him so much ooc that I don’t consider TR Thor, the real Thor.
I think it would be appropriate to reiterate what I said in the last post linked in the above (the one arguing that the obedience disc is a torture device), so here it is again for people who don’t bother to follow links:
< I’ve been seeing a lot of people try to justify Thor* by pointing out that Loki has done worse things to him; most commonly they will cite the incident in The Avengers where Loki drops Thor out of the Helicarrier in the Hulk cage. (This is such a common move that I feel like it’s got to be in some Thor* stan/ Ragnarok defense playbook.) Here is why that comparison doesn’t accomplish what they want it to accomplish:
It was entirely reasonable for Loki to think he was not endangering Thor’s life. He knew Thor could get out of the cage because he had Mjolnir with him. As far as we can tell, in Ragnarok, Thor* had no way of knowing that the first people who would happen along were Korg & co. as opposed to, e.g., Topaz, who probably would have just killed Loki while he was incapacitated. Maybe he did have some way of knowing, but this was not made at all clear in the film. So even if he didn’t think he was endangering Loki’s life, he was being culpably negligent.
In The Avengers, Loki was acting as an adversary, and everyone was completely aware of that. He was trying to hamper his opponents by scattering them, and possibly to demoralize Thor by showing that he wasn’t going to get his brother back. In Ragnarok, Thor* presented what he did as some kind of “tough love” – punishing Loki “for his own good,” with the aim of getting Loki back on his side rather than (as Loki was doing in The Avengers) turning him decisively against him. If you can’t see why that’s kind of fucked up, well…
Loki is clearly aware that what he’s doing in The Avengers is wrong. He hesitates before he hits the button to drop the cage, and hesitates again (with tears in his eyes, FFS!) before he stabs Thor later. He’s conflicted, and it’s not unreasonable to think he regrets hurting Thor when he’s no longer under direct threat from Thanos (his attempts at self-justification in TDW have a defensive air that make me think the lady doth protest too much). In Ragnarok, Thor* just looks smug and self-righteous about the electrocution thing, even though he’s very aware that Loki is in severe pain. >
And I’m sure I’ve said it somewhere else, but again, it doesn’t really make sense to compare the electrocution in Ragnarok to the things Loki did to Thor in Thor 1 and The Avengers because in both of the latter cases, it’s made pretty clear that Loki isn’t in his right mind. In Thor 1, Loki has pretty clearly been profoundly disturbed by the revelation that he actually belongs to a race that he has been taught all his life to hate and fear (and that Thor has twice vowed to “finish”). He is convinced that the reason Odin always favored Thor is because Loki is really Jotun, not Asgardian, so he’s desperate to prove how very Asgardian and not Jotun he really is. I agree that it’s not clear whether Loki meant to kill Thor with the Destroyer; he must have known that killing Odin’s other son wouldn’t be a great way of earning his favor. (Maybe he had it backhand rather than incinerate him so he could pass it off as an accident… or maybe he lacked commitment there too.) At any rate, he is very obviously emotionally and psychologically unwell for… over half of the movie, tbh, but it becomes increasingly obvious in the last third.
In The Avengers, Loki shows up looking like shit; his eyes are wild and hollow and he’s saying some really weird stuff. When they communicate through the scepter, the Other threatens him and he looks terrified. No, Loki wasn’t completely under Thanos’s control and maybe he bears some responsibility for getting himself into that position… but again, he’s clearly been through some shit and is under severe duress. And, as noted above, he’s conflicted about hurting Thor.
Thor* has no such excuse or explanation in Ragnarok. On the contrary; he’s presented as being fully in control, cool-headed, rational, oh-so-cleverly out-thinking his clever brother. He even thought up this scheme in advance, because he predicted that Loki would betray him (for no good reason other than it was needed as set-up for the “trickster tricked” scenario where Loki gets his painful, humiliating comeuppance). Thor*’s action is more blameworthy than anything Loki has done to him because he does it while in full possession of his faculties and shows sadistic glee at making Loki suffer.
And no, Loki has not been stabbing Thor or “trying to kill him” since they were children. Taika Waititi pulled that out of his ass. It should be obvious from Thor 1 that Thor trusts Loki, that they’ve been comrades in arms for centuries, and that Loki’s betrayal and his demand that Thor fight him come as an incredible shock. If you want to accept the stabbing-since-childhood BS as canon, then you’d better stop citing anything Loki does in Thor 1, including telling Thor their father is dead and striking him with the Destroyer, because clearly you’re ignoring what that movie established as the longtime dynamic between them. You want to pretend previous canon doesn’t exist? Then at least do it consistently.
Jumping on because I can’t resist over thinking this with you. I wholeheartedly agree with everything you wrote, and wanted to comment on the unspoken layer beneath all of this. Because as much as Loki’s trying to prove himself and make his father proud (as Frigga tells him to do), there’s the the constant undercurrent of Loki trying to grapple with what he is. Yes, he is trying to prove himself as the second son now that he’s out of that shadow, but he’s also trying that he is capable as King despite his Jotun nature.
Because no matter how much you claim to love me,
you could never have a Frost Giant, sitting on the Throne of Asgard!
Loki believes that Odin only saw him as a tool and never intended–never saw him capable–of sitting on the throne. No amount of Frigga’s words of support and love are able to negate this, so Loki needs to prove that Odin is wrong. That he can do this–can destroy Laufey and the Frost Giants and prove his worth as a son of Odin. I think up until the moment he Gungnir in his hand, Loki is floundering–unable to process what he’s learned and unsure of how he will cope–but when he is named king, he suddenly realize that he can do it. He can make Odin proud despite ‘what’ he is.
Father! We’ll finish them together.
Loki knows what Thor will do if he returns. Thor will wage war against Jotunheim. Thor will lead them into battle and get the credit for saving the realm. He will be the golden son that he always is. Why else would Loki have ended Thor’s banishment unless Loki needed Thor to rule because he couldn’t do himself? Why else would the Warriors Four be questioning his reign, if they too didn’t seem him as incapable? But, as you note, if Thor stays on Midgard, then Loki will be the victor–he will be the worthy one. No one will see him as the weak second son (or the monster he now knows he is). He will prove he can rule–that he can save Asgard–despite not being Thor (and despite what he his).
There will be no kingdom to protect if you’re afraid to act! The Jotuns must learn to fear me, just as they
once feared you.
And finally’s there’s this. Loki has heard Thor say such things since they were boys–I’m sure Loki, himself, said such things. As much as Frigga says he’s their son and that they love him, he fears Thor’s reaction. I don’t think this alone is enough to make him strike first, but he is guarding himself against it. Then the Warriors Four doubt and betray him purely because he is Loki. If they can turn on him so easily now, Loki doesn’t even need to question how they–let alone the rest of Asgard (or Thor)–would react if they knew what he was. They would string him up before he could even blink. But if he can just destroy Jotunheim (something that is better than Thor just making the Jotuns fear him), then there is no reason for any of them to doubt him. The only way to disprove what he is, is to be the hero. And the only way to be Asgard’s savior is to keep Thor on Midgard (by any means necessary).
Ugh this is all so, so true and an excellent point/addition. Especially this:
I don’t know that Loki immediately began plotting to make it a more permanent position out of corruption, though. I think that he began plotting to do as much as he could while he had the position to clean up Thor’s mess with Jotunheim and make himself the hero who killed Laufey, slaughtered the Frost Giants (which Thor wanted to do) and saved Asgard. In my opinion, Loki’s intentions were never evil or corrupt; he acted out of a desperate need to prove his worth – to prove himself equal to Thor, or maybe even better than Thor.
It really makes me wonder how things might have turned out had Sif and the W3 not intervened – because, really, all Loki was trying to do was keep Thor away from Asgard until he had time to carry out his plan and come out the other side, victorious. I think eventually, he probably would have let Thor come back. But once the W4 went against Loki’s orders to bring Thor back, that’s when Loki got desperate and things fell apart.
I don’t think Loki ever thought he’d have the kingship permanently. If nothing else, Odin was going to wake up eventually, at which point he’d be king again. Loki just saw an opportunity to prove himself, while taking Thor down a few pegs, and pounced. Idk, it’s all very interesting because there’s just so much complexity going on between the characters in this movie and a million different ways things could have all turned out.
If they can turn on him so easily now, Loki doesn’t even need to question how they–let alone the rest of Asgard (or Thor)–would react if they knew what he was. They would string him up before he could even blink.
God, poor Loki. The saddest part is that this is absolutely true, Loki doesn’t have to do anything untrustworthy to be considered untrustworthy, so if they knew what he really was, that dynamic increases tenfold. Additionally, it’s almost like it gives them validation in their mistrust of him. See? He’s a frost giant. We knew he was up to no good. We were right not to trust him. Incidentally, I kind of headcanon that Heimdall does feel this way toward Loki – that he inherently distrusts him because he’s Jotun and is just waiting for an excuse to be proven right. This is why Heimdall turns on him in the blink of an eye. Like, that escalated pretty quickly for someone supposedly so loyal to the throne. But I digress.
Okay this face makes me want to rant. People joke constantly about how Loki was lying to Thor about everything, even the fact that he loves his brother, because he always thirsted for the throne. Aside the fact that he SAID “I never wanted the throne, I only ever wanted to be your equal" to Thor in the heat of candid emotion, look at this face.
He makes this face WHEN NO ONE IS LOOKING.
WHEN NO ONE IS LOOKING.
WHEN NO ONE IS LOOKING.
It is in EARNEST. When the audience sees Loki making faces in moments like THIS, be they evil faces or sad faces, the writer and director are using a rhetorical device called DRAMATIC IRONY: the audience has insight into character feelings, motives, and actions that no other character has. There are three moments of Dramatic Irony in Thor:
1) When Loki facepalms at Thor wanting to go to Jotunheim and succeeding in convincing the Warriors 3 to join him.
2) THIS moment, in this gif, and also when Thor is cast out and Loki reacts behind Odin’s back in shock and hurt—as well as in nervous vigilance when Mjolnir is cast out as well.
3) Much later, after things have escalated, when Loki lies to Thor that Odin is dead, turns away, and we see him smirking triumphantly that Thor has bought the lie.
ERGO:
—Loki did not plan for it to go this far.
—Loki is contrite that it went this far.
—Loki is also unwilling to stop its trajectory (although he DOES try once, before Odin silences him).
Almost anything else about events leading up to this is arguable, except that Loki a) loves Thor, b) is jealous of Thor, c) is conflicted about his own role in the family dynamic. And he did NOT want Thor banished. And he DID NOT anticipate that Odin would banish Thor. He just wanted Thor DISCREDITED as a leader to Odin so that Loki would have the time to prove HIMSELF a worthy heir (even though, as he himself SAID, it wasn’t even a title he ultimately wanted).
I find that people constantly argue that Loki planned for everything that happened to Thor in the first half of the movie. I deeply believe that this is inaccurate. I believe that Loki was an excellent deceiver but that his Achilles’s Heel has ALWAYS been to get in over his head. He thought the three Jotun guards would mess up Thor’s coronation. He thought Thor and Odin would argue and Odin would berate Thor for being “arrogant and reckless" (Loki’s words). He did not care about Aesir collateral, although he didn’t anticipate that either (because he thought Odin would get there faster, and didn’t realize Odin was tired and headed for an Odinsleep). And that’s it. He DIDN’T expect Thor to ever REACH Jotunheim (again, he overestimated Odin’s capacity to come stop them when he tipped off the guard), and I even argue he didn’t want Thor to even TRY (because he already got what he wanted, Odin is already furious at Thor, and also, because Loki facepalms, again, when NO ONE IS LOOKING, in EXASPERATION, he doesn’t triumphantly smirk the way he does after he’s lied to Thor that Odin is dead). And when they got there, and battled, and Fandral was wounded, and Odin took them all home, he DIDN’T expect Odin to banish Thor OR to cast Mjolnir out with him. THEN it happened. THEN the confession of Loki’s Jotun heritage happened. THEN Loki decided he’d go after Mjolnir and keep Thor exiled indefinitely. THEN Sif and the W3 disobeyed his mandate. THEN Loki panicked and sent the Destroyer to kill Thor. You see how things were not entirely planned out to the last detail, or rather they were, but anytime something on the chessboard shifted, so did Loki? Things snowballed.
People need to remember two facts:
a) Loki gets in over his head, because he’s playful and likes the thrill of danger.
b) Loki changes his plans 180 degrees with every new contingency. He is resourceful and capricious.
Designing Tom Huddleston as Loki (armor version). The interweaving shapes motif of Thor’s custome is kept here to connect their world with its Norse origins and also alluded to the interconnectedness of Thor, Loki, and Odin.#loki #marvel #avengers #MCU #conceptart @twhiddleston
It’s fascinating to see how the costume evolved – like the helmet in the first pic is much prominent over the brow than the third and what was eventually created. It looks a lot more menacing but I agree it wouldn’t have suited Loki in Thor 1. And how the curve of the armour carries on in the first pic to be a sort of knee length tunic – I wonder what that would have been like during movement – I suspect it might have looked better stationary and been a bit awkward so it got dropped.
And in the last pic, his casual attire, it seems the shoulder pads are a little smaller than what they finally went with. Personally I think I prefer that. It always seems to me like they were trying to bulk Loki up with clothing and they were just a little bit too big for his frame.
That second pic. Er…? Thank the norns they didn’t go there!
Loki is the Philosopher King 