incredifishface:

thefingerfuckingfemalefury:

elizabethan-ho:

loptrcoptr:

kawaiite-mage:

spikedbat:

joss whedon: loki tortures and murders people for fun, and, despite being the god of CHAOS, is a fascist who says things like “it’s the unspoken truth of humanity that you crave subjugation” 

taika waititi: loki is an annoying little shit who day-drinks, puts on theater about himself, and fucks his way to the top

joss whedon: loki and thor are gods, so they always talk proper and posh and in cryptic riddles so for no reason. it makes them seem more powerful and mystical.

taiki waititi: one time when they were kids loki turned into a snake because he knows thor loves snakes and then thor went to pick up the snake and then loki turned back into himself and screamed “yueagh, it’s me!” and then he stabbed thor

Taika Waititi has a deeper understanding of Norse mythological accuracy than Joss lol

It’s because Joss Whedon looks at all mythology and religion through a Christian-atheist lens. You can see it in Buffy and even a little in Firefly too. Even when he writes about other religions and their deities and practices, it still comes back to Christianity.

He wrote Thor and Loki as modern Western Christianity would portray Jesus and the Devil as opposed to how they actually are in mythology or the comics

That…is a really good addition as to why Whedon gets Thor and Loki
wrong and why Taika did a far better job with their
characters/personalities in Ragnarok

the fandom in 2012: JOSS WHEDON IS A GENIUS AVENGERS IS THE SUPERHERO FILM TO END ALL SUPERHERO FILMS LOKI IS THE SEXIEST COOLEST VILLAIN IN THE UNIVERSE EVER JOSS WHEDON IS THE SHIT

the fandom in 2018: Joss Whedon is Shit, everything he did is shit, here’s some para-meta to justify why everything he ever did is shit.  TAIKA IS IN, HE IS THE SHIT, EVERYTHING HE DOES IS GENIUS, CAN HE DIRECT ALL THE MOVIES, OMG HIS CHARACTERIZATION IS THE ULTIMATE AND BEST, HIS THOR IS ACTUAL REAL THOR HIS LOKI IS ACTUAL NORSE MYTH LOKI AND EVERYTHING THAT CAME BEFORE WAS WRONG AND BAD.

the fandom in 2022…?? 

Oh look, @fuckyeahrichardiii, it’s that hot take about how Taika has Deep Pagan Insight into Original Norse Myth Loki while Whedon is a horrible ignorant white dude who Christianizes everything. You know, the one I said I wasn’t going to reblog and argue with because I was too tired and had better things to do. That’s still true, but now I’m just feeling pissy.

Here’s my historically informed lukewarm Nietzschean take: all of Western culture and literature – including the comics that elizabethan-ho claimed were, like original Norse mythology, somehow Christianity-free – are steeped in the Christian worldview. If you were raised and educated in the European-descended Western world, you cannot escape it. It is everywhere. Even if you’re pagan, you’re still culturally Christian. I am Jewish and I’m culturally Christian. All of our liberal-democratic and/or socialist egalitarian altruistic morality is Christian morality. What’s more, as fuckyeahrichardiii helpfully informed/reminded me, all of the written sources we have on Norse mythology were written by Christians; they are already being interpreted, if a bit uncomfortably, though a Christian lens.

So what if Whedon was giving hints of Thor-as-Jesus and Loki-as-Satan? So were the Miller-Stentz writing team and Kenneth Branagh in Thor 1. I mean, it’s a little more complicated than that because they all show Thor as imperfect and needing moral improvement… so maybe he’s David, not Jesus. Except for the redemption through self-sacrifice thing, that’s a little Jesus-y. And if Loki is Satan, it’s definitely a Romantic Miltonian Satan, who was once an angel and whose fall is tragic. But the point is, it’s impossible to get away from Christian Biblical tropes when they are the skeleton on which the Western literary tradition is hung. We have only conjectures about what the pagan moral mindset was like. And you know what? It almost certainly wouldn’t be anti-imperialist. Yeah, let’s go conquer some shit, then settle down and marry and trade but also make sure the locals know who’s in charge.

goingrampant:

kyliafanfiction:

rahirah:

kyliafanfiction:

rahirah:

luscious2:

cannibalsuxx:

It disgusts me that Buffy never beat the living shit out of Xander after he yelled at her in 3×02 and not after Buffy finally found out Xander lied about Willow telling her to kick Angel’s ass. Joss Whedon’s scummy ass just loved putting himself in that character to put Buffy “in her place.” Scumbag. Xander never faced consequences and that was because Joss never did. Until the 2010’s came for ha white Thano’s looking ass.

Actually Joss is Buffy.

It was about four years after the end of the run of Buffy that I really just went “Oh, I was Buffy! The whole time.” I always thought I was Xander before he started getting laid. I’m the wacky sidekick. Then I had this shocking moment of idiotic revelation that I’d been writing about myself that whole time. -Joss Whedon

Link

It was about four years after the end of Buffy that I went, oh! I was Buffy the whole time. I [thought I was] Xander–before he started getting laid. It’s the best thing about the work. If you’re not writing about yourself, why are you writing? -Joss Whedon

Link

Which casts an exceptionally depressing light on the fact that Comics Buffy apparently can’t handle a long term relationship. :/

Also, really says a lot that you want a heroic character to beat the living shit out of someone for yelling and one lie. I mean, what does theft merit? Beheading? What if Xander had like, dared to lay a hand on her while yelling? Castration for sure.

There’s been rather a lot of “Any character who ever so much as looked cross-eyed at Buffy is scum who deserves to be BOILED IN LAVA and their fans should be pelted with fruits and various meats!” in the tags recently.

It seems to come in cycles. Someone dares to suggest her friends had the right idea once, and then all this for a while.

I honestly don’t get where it comes from. I mean, I love and protect my faves, but still, yeesh.

If you want a quote about Joss seeing himself in Buffy that’s more about Buffy than a guy he isn’t:

“Buffy went through a lot, but I always had a very firm base with her. She’s the guy you don’t see coming. She was my avatar. She was the girl in the picture. Whereas Angel was a straight-up hero, and that made him hard to write.” –Joss Whedon, Cultural Humanism Award Q/A

Also, feminists generally regard the trope of “male character does something skeezy to a female character, who responds with cartoonishly disproportionate violence to teach him a lesson” as misogynistic. Like, it essentially excuses bad behavior on the part of the male character and the male audience who would be presumed to use the character as an extension by including a built-in punishment mechanism. No lesson is taught, just a fee for bad behavior that is paid and moved past with the full intention of committing it again and paying the fee again. If Buffy really beat up Xander for bad behavior, the discourse would be about Joss Whedon thinking that a fee for bad behavior is an excuse for including it at all, and there’s already speculation that female characters beating up male characters is an expression of his masochistic desire instead of any real illustration of female empowerment. I feel like these kinds of criticisms are more about subjective emotional outbursts than any analytical appraisal of feminist storytelling.

goingrampant:

kyliafanfiction-archive:

camillesengelsons:

Angel the Sitcom

A very serious show about very serious people doing important things.

“I think we’re winning!” (cut to them tied up) is one of my favorite jokes in the whole show. Next to the group phone messaging service that has a series of people explaining which button leads to which person that starts with two humans being like, “For Bob, press 1!” and “For Kim, press 2!” and then a demon saying something like, “Or to speak to or worship LORD TARVALON, MASTER of PAIN and DEATH, press 3 now…” That and BtVS’ “The demons are escaping; please run for your lives” need more love.

goingrampant:

philosopherking1887:

philosopherking1887:

foundlingmother replied to your post “Still unfollowing people who post/reblog ill-informed kneejerk Whedon…”

It reminds me how desensitized people are to ableism in films and every day life. Ragnarok has a lot of ableism. I don’t think it’s meant to be hurtful, but then neither is any sexism in the Avengers movies. It’s just two different filmmakers with two different failings in social justice/morality. But Whedon gets rampant hate, while TW gets called a literal god. Tumblr culture is fucking scary…

Let’s not forget the homophobia in Thor: Ragnarok that has somehow been converted, by some strange Tumblrian alchemy, to groundbreakingly wonderful LGBT representation.

Although actually, @foundlingmother, in this instance it wasn’t anything about sexism, it was some bullshit about how Taika’s characterization of Thor and Loki was more “accurate” to Norse mythology while Joss was importing Christianity and portraying them as Jesus and the Devil and I was like… I could write a lengthy post about how off-base that analysis is and also how beside the point that would be as an assessment of MCU films even if it were accurate, or I could just unfollow the reblogger and block the post.

I haven’t read a lot of Marvel comics, but the original silver age comics Thor 1 was based on definitely had Loki as a Satan stand-in, so it’s possible that any sort of reading of Avengers Loki as Satan is based on the comics being adapted, if only through continuity from Thor 1.

I think it’s more accurate as an analysis of Thor 1, considering the Fall narrative that’s going on… but in that case, Thor is definitely not Jesus, because he’s far from perfect. But that still wouldn’t serve the desired purpose, because Joss Whedon didn’t write Thor 1, and the point was to condemn him for putting everything in Christian terms, while claiming that Taika (no doubt thanks to his unspoiled indigenous heritage) is somehow in touch with the Norse pagan spirit. Never mind that the written sources of Norse myth that we have are post-Christian, or that the entirety of modern European literature intervened between those sources and the Marvel comics, and that in any case the MCU characters are not supposed to be identical either to the mythical figures or to any particular iteration of the comics.

*screams*

pedeka:

philosopherking1887:

philosopherking1887:

foundlingmother replied to your post “Still unfollowing people who post/reblog ill-informed kneejerk Whedon…”

It reminds me how desensitized people are to ableism in films and every day life. Ragnarok has a lot of ableism. I don’t think it’s meant to be hurtful, but then neither is any sexism in the Avengers movies. It’s just two different filmmakers with two different failings in social justice/morality. But Whedon gets rampant hate, while TW gets called a literal god. Tumblr culture is fucking scary…

Let’s not forget the homophobia in Thor: Ragnarok that has somehow been converted, by some strange Tumblrian alchemy, to groundbreakingly wonderful LGBT representation.

Although actually, @foundlingmother, in this instance it wasn’t anything about sexism, it was some bullshit about how Taika’s characterization of Thor and Loki was more “accurate” to Norse mythology while Joss was importing Christianity and portraying them as Jesus and the Devil and I was like… I could write a lengthy post about how off-base that analysis is and also how beside the point that would be as an assessment of MCU films even if it were accurate, or I could just unfollow the reblogger and block the post.

Whedon never tried to turn Loki into the Devil. He lucked into getting an actual British guy to play William the Bloody Awful in Avengers.

Ha! I could never get over how bad James Marsters’ accent was. I could sort of roll with it until he used a short ‘a’ in “can’t” or “bath” or “pass” and then I’d fall out of the pretense for a while.

littlewomanly1:

philosopherking1887:

littlewomanly1:

Nope don’t believe it!!!

I hope he’s fucking with us, but I doubt it.

Tom is too fucking nice. He should have fought for his character the way RDJ does. I want to hear him say that the makers of the last two movies did him and his work an injustice.

He said he’s known that loki dies in infinty war since before Ragnarok!

Yeah, OK. Did he know he would die gruesomely in the first 5 minutes while doing something incredibly stupid and out of character?

I really, really wish Joss Whedon had still been writing it. He would have given Loki a meaningful role to play in bringing down Thanos – after all, he was the one who planted the connection between them, and he knew what a treasure he had in Hiddleston. He made Loki the sole villain in “The Avengers” after he saw some of the work he had done in “Thor.” He would have given Loki a good death, worthy of the intelligence and complexity of his character.

iamanartichoke
mentioned you on a post “I’ve been thinking about this line a lot. And I’m not sure it’s given…”

@philosopherking1887 re: your tags, what’s the deal with tumblr and joss whedon? I keep getting snippets here and there but I’m not sure what the story is haha

@iamanartichoke I’m honestly not sure. There seems to be a pattern on Tumblr of idolizing a celebrity to a ridiculous degree and then collectively turning viciously on that person when they turn out not to be as impossibly perfect as the fans made them out to be; I’ve seen people predicting that Tumblr will shortly turn against John Mulaney en masse because the level of adoration is becoming unsustainable.

I have been told that a similar thing happened with Joss Whedon, but I never saw the worship phase. I joined Tumblr in late 2015, and being an ordinary geek, I liked his work a lot (and still do). I had watched Avengers: Age of Ultron and I really liked that, too (and still do!), probably because I wasn’t steeped in The Tumblr Consensus that it is Sexist and Terrible. There are stories about Whedon treating actresses badly, and after his wife divorced him, she published an essay saying that he’s not really a great feminist and he would complain to her about all the beautiful young women throwing themselves at him and not being allowed to touch them. He also does sometimes fall into sexist tropes with storytelling, characterization, and visual depiction of women, and arguably he does this with Black Widow in both Avengers movies. (I don’t think she was saying in Age of Ultron that she’s a monster because she can’t have children, though it is easy to hear it that way, and he should have been more careful about the potential for misunderstanding.) I have not read his draft script for a Wonder Woman movie that’s floating around online, but I’m told (by people I generally trust, but who are susceptible to being swayed by The Tumblr Consensus) that it is full of sexist crap.

Tumblr being what it is, the fact that Whedon is morally imperfect, and that he is an imperfect feminist (if not the completely fake one that Tumblr has decided he is), has led everyone to conclude that he must be a terrible writer in every way. People will make offhand comments about how the scripts of the Avengers movies were “terrible”; they claim that he doesn’t understand any of the characters and exaggerate the extent to which his dialogue is made up of jokes and pop culture references. One of the most absurd, infuriating examples of this that KEEPS GOING AROUND is a pair of gifs of Steve/Cap, in one saying “Son of a gun” and in the other “Son of a bitch.” The original caption is “character development”… but then someone reblogged with someone else’s tags saying that it was actually the difference between Joss Whedon’s gee-whiz boy scout version of Cap and Steve Rogers the scrappy Brooklyn kid and WWII Army vet, and a bunch of people piled on with the insistence that Whedon got Steve All Wrong. Now, I think most of this stems from a shallow understanding of what was going on with Steve in the first Avengers – and in fact, I think the criticisms of Age of Ultron also stem from shallow understanding (which is rampant not just on Tumblr). But the most glaring irony is that the second gif of Steve saying “Son of a bitch” (which is supposed to be the accurate, appropriately vulgar characterization) is from Age of Ultron… which was also written by Joss Whedon. Say what you want about the recurring “Language!” joke in AOU (I have a theory, but I don’t want to go into it here); you can’t say that the gif on the right is an improvement from Joss Whedon’s terrible characterization if it is also by Joss Whedon. I think people must assume that it’s from Winter Soldier because they don’t remember that the ironic punchline to the “language” joke is that Steve swears, too.

So yeah. That’s the story.

foundlingmother:

oneformischief:

I’ve been thinking about this line a lot. And I’m not sure it’s given all the credit it deserves. It is well overshadowed by Thor’s immediate response (”surrender’s not in mine”), and by the line that steals this whole scene: “Trust my rage.” 

But there’s something about this line that gets me, and I think it’s because it is probably the truest thing Loki has ever said about himself. 

Loki, as we well know, is a master of avoiding his own problems, or else manipulating them to look like everyone else’s. He has told himself so many lies that he has begun to believe them: that he is hated, that he is alone, that he will never be anything but Loki. Frigga even points this out: “Always so perceptive, about everyone but yourself”. Loki can read everyone else, but when it comes to reading himself? Oh, Hel no. Those are dangerous waters, and he would rather not drown there. 

And that’s why this line is so surprising and just so good. The fact that Loki is never satisfied is, when you think about it, pretty much the root of all his problems (at least ones that he can control). As a child and young adult, he appears to have mastered magic, but that was never enough, because it wasn’t like Thor, it wasn’t what Asgard wanted, it wasn’t what Odin wanted (or so he thought). He wants to be Thor’s equal, little realising that in many ways he is, but that, too, is not enough. He tries to be Thor, and is never satisfied. He tries to be Loki, and is never satisfied. He goes out of his way to prove himself to his family, and still he craves more. And so it escalates. A throne. A planet. He keeps reaching and reaching, oblivious to the fact that whilst he is grasping for the mountain’s peak, the rocks beneath him are slipping away. 

And now we come to Ragnarok, and Loki has what he claims he has always wanted: the throne. A chance to rule. And I don’t think for a moment it is what he expects. Because once he has something, it no longer fulfills him; and he is stuck without a family, bearing the weight of the kingship, and I’m nintey-nine percent sure all he can do is sit there thinking ‘Well. Now what?’

And this is why happiness is so foreign to Loki, and always will be, and why he has doomed himself: for contentment, he must learn to settle, and because he is Loki, he will never settle. And so the cycle continues, and he proves time and time again that Loki’s worst enemy will always be Loki. 

On some points, I agree. Without a doubt, Loki’s greatest and most persistent enemy is himself. Fueled by insecurity, he twists words and/or his own thoughts/memories, refuses to trust and doubts/denies the love that others show him, and avoids confronting problems by pushing them aside, running, or retaliating with some prank (or worse). “Satisfaction is not in my nature,” is one of the truest lines Loki’s spoken. There is an element of never settling. Intelligent people often struggle with restlessness. There’s an urge for more, more, more to satisfy a brain that keeps turning (especially when that brain will turn on itself if left to its own devices). However, a far bigger reason that satisfaction is not in Loki’s nature is because he struggles with mental illness. Happiness is foreign to Loki not because he refuses to be content with what he has, but because he’s incapable, through no fault of his own, of being happy.

Now, till this point I’ve allowed the assumption that Loki should be content if he were capable of being so, but that’s not the case.

As a child and young adult, he appears to have mastered magic, but that was never enough, because it wasn’t like Thor, it wasn’t what Asgard wanted, it wasn’t what Odin wanted (or so he thought).

There’s no indication Odin wanted Loki to master magic. Odin never, in any movie, showed he felt an ounce of pride in Loki’s accomplishments. He does mention that Frigga would be proud, and perhaps it’s implied that he’s impressed as well. Asgard, too, doesn’t respect Loki’s skills. We’re given a clear example of this in a deleted scene (the servant laughing when Thor says that some do battle while others just tricks). Asgard adores Thor. They eat up his showboating when he enters his coronation.

He wants to be Thor’s equal, little realising that in many ways he is, but that, too, is not enough.

It’s true that Loki is Thor’s equal in many respects. He’s powerful and cunning. His strengths are Thor’s weaknesses, and vice versa. They balance one another out. However, Asgard does not treat them as equals. Even Thor slips into putting Loki in his place. We are shown this on Jotunheim.

Even if Loki’s problem was that he refuses to be content, that does not mean that that refusal is unjustified or unhealthy. Should he be content in a position where he’s disrespected, where he’s reminded of his place when he attempts to council Thor, and where people are quick to mistrust him? (Regardless of the fact that Sif and the Warriors Three are correct about Loki’s crimes in Thor, they come to that conclusion with little to no compelling evidence, and become angry that Loki told a guard to go to Odin despite the fact that this saved their lives.)

And now we come to Ragnarok, and Loki has what he claims he has always wanted: the throne. A chance to rule.

Loki claims he wants a throne. However, Loki’s never desired a throne because he wants to rule. He desires a throne because he wants respect and deference and freedom (which power supposedly provides).

I think people assume that Loki got a chance at everything he desired in between TDW and Ragnarok, and found, unsurprisingly, it wasn’t enough. The truth is Loki has never had what he wants. What he wants is freedom and for people to respect and accept him for who he is. He wants this without having to compromise what makes him Loki (and another struggle, of course, is discovering what exactly it means to be Loki, and whether Loki’s someone worth being). Disguised as Odin, Loki is not respected. Odin is. It’s true he rules, but under another’s name and face. Nothing about his time as Odin achieves Loki’s desires save for, perhaps, a feeling a security against the looming threat of Thanos.

It’s entirely possible that even if Loki had respect, freedom, acceptance, and good mental health he’d still feel discontent, but that’s not the situation we see in the MCU. The Loki we see deals (very poorly and (self-)destructively) with legitimate grievance about his treatment, and suffers from wretched mental health. The fix for that is not, and never will be, to learn to settle for what you’ve got. Or, to put it in the terms of so many people I’ve encountered in my life, to “choose happiness”.

I think @foundlingmother is exactly right about what Loki’s problem is and what he ultimately wants. But I suspect it’s not so easy to draw a line between his shoddy treatment in Asgard and his mental illness. We know very little about the etiology of mental illness: how much is inherited, how much is acquired due to environmental factors. Early childhood experiences seem to be very important in the development of a person’s “attachment style,” so called; though of course Loki does not remember being abandoned as a baby and spending a day or two hungry, cold, and alone, that experience might still have imprinted itself on his emotional systems and left him extremely insecure and convinced, regardless of the evidence, that anyone he cares about will eventually abandon him.

Whether or not that was a factor, his insecurity about his own worth and his reliance on the approval of others was almost certainly reinforced by all the signals he received throughout childhood and youth, subtle or explicit, that he was not as good as Thor, and that his talents were less valuable. Take a close look at his interactions with Thor and the Warriors Four in the first Thor movie – including Hiddleston’s body language – and you can take a guess at what his childhood was like: he’s quiet, withdrawn, a little strange; the other kids think he’s weird and don’t really like him but put up with him because he’s Thor’s brother; Thor knows him well and values his opinions, at least in private, but in front of other people he pushes Loki aside to assert his own authority. Was Loki quiet and withdrawn to begin with because he already had social anxiety, innately or due to early childhood trauma, or just because he’s an introvert? Or did he develop social anxiety because of this inconsistent treatment (Do Thor & friends like/respect me or not? How can I tell?) and become more quiet and withdrawn as a result?

To be completely clear: I do not hate Thor and the W4; I do not (unlike some Loki stans) think they’re nothing but terrible abusive bullies. I think Thor had his own insecurities and took them out on Loki; I think Loki probably was kind of a little shit independent of all the other stuff, and the W4 may well have had some legitimate reasons for not liking him. Like many fans, I characterize Loki as being very similar to myself, and I know that I am an acquired taste; I have a dry, very nerdy, sometimes pretentious, often bitchy sense of humor; I’m an unabashed snob (about some things) and misanthrope. People who are very earnest tend not to like me, and that’s fine. Loki’s problem may have been that he had trouble finding people in Asgard who shared his mindset, and he ended up going along with Thor’s friends by default. I get the sense that Fandral was the one of Thor’s friends who liked Loki the most (he’s the first to jump to his defense when Hogun accuses him in Thor, and in TDW, he never threatens to kill Loki for betrayal), and that makes perfect sense if Loki is like me in the ways I’ve suggested.

Finally, a bit of completely unnecessary riding of my own hobby horse: you know who wrote that perceptive line, “Satisfaction’s not in my nature” (as well as the beautiful and memorable lines that follow it up)? That’s right: Joss Whedon. Perhaps Tumblrites should consider that the next time they insist as proof of their own moral purity that he’s a terrible writer of character and dialogue.

nmacparlan:

thiddlestonismyknight:

hiddlestonss:

Alot of time was spent building up the threat, building up the character, showing how strong and dangerous he was. But, at the end of the day, I think the thing that makes it work is Tom. He breathes alot of life into Loki. – Joss Whedon 

As said before:

Tom was the one who made Loki actually Loki.

Even Feigie had to admit that “what Tom has done with Loki is beyond our wildest expectations”. 

And you know what? Joss Whedon – unlike Taika Waititi, Markus & McFeely, and the Russos – knew how to use Loki’s character depth and Tom’s acting ability.