eliannaeldari replied to your post “How can you come from a monotheistic family and have a deep…”

(1/7) Um, no, we never ever ever believed in the validity of multiple Gods as an aspect of our religion, though paganism was definitely a problem for us in biblical times. There are multiple stories of god breaking idols, etc, but that’s intended to demonstrate that they were just “ivory and wood, silver and marble”, “eyes that do not see, lips that do not speak, and ears that do not hear”. This whole thing is seriously misguided, I’m sorry. Taika seems to have followed

(2/7) A charachterization closer to that described in the eddas than in the comics, but that’s probably due to him just going ahead and reading the eddas. They aren’t all that hard to get a hold of.

(3/7) I know very little about Islam, but while in Judaism god is described as jealous, it’s never “of other Gods”, it’s more like possessive. According to Judaism, there are no other Gods, and large factions of Judaism don’t believe in any non-god supernatural forces whatsoever. Christianity is mostly only considered monothiest by Christians, and while some Jewish sages say that it is, plenty say that it’s polythiesm, especially Catholicism and any involving the Trinity or

(4/7) Saints. We aren’t even allowed to pray in a church- aren’t even really supposed to go in them, though many people are lax about that. Mosques, on the other hand, we’re allowed to pray in- though are not supposed to take part in Muslim services. We have hymns and descriptions and poetry and legal writings from before Jesus was even a glimmer in his parents’ eyes about the oneness, unity, and lone existence of god. That doesn’t mean that Jews back then followed the

(5/7) Mitzvot/rules any more than they/,we do now, but that’s entirely different than claiming that *as a matter if religion* we acknowledged foreign Gods.

(6/7) We say, three times a day, (plus it’s supposed to be the last thing we say before we die) “hear Israel: the Lord is our God, the Lord is one”.

(7/7) God absolutely doesn’t want us wasting our time and efforts worshipping God’s that don’t exist, instead of following his commandments. That’s made pretty damn clear. Now, to be honest, *I believe in a “clockmaker” god, and am no longer orthodox*. But I couldn’t let this lie, as it’s very misinformed and misleading. I assume that OP simply didn’t have as much information, and was writing in good faith, but that doesn’t mean that the analysis is based in fact.

OK, first of all, @eliannaeldari – I am Jewish. Not religiously, anymore, but by heritage and upbringing. But I grew up Reform Jewish, in a family and a congregation that respected secular academic scholarship… and of course I’m in academia now, studying a period in history when secular Biblical scholarship and history was a relatively new thing that was (along with Darwin) contributing to Europe’s religious crisis.

My information – coming from the cantor at the synagogue where I grew up, as well as from interacting with scholars of Jewish history in religious studies departments – is that very early Judaism embraced monolatry, the worship of only one god, rather than monotheism, the belief in the existence of only one god. I was under the impression that that was the scholarly consensus. The Jewish Virtual Library concurs; the Wikipedia article on monolatry cites a number of scholars who defend this thesis; My Jewish Learning, a site for prospective converts, teaches the controversy (so to speak), but only cites two scholars who hold that Judaism was monotheistic from the beginning.

So no, I was not claiming that we ever “believed in the validity of multiple Gods as an aspect of our religion.” It is not clear whether by validity you meant “actual existence” or “worth and acceptable worship.” The concept of monolatry indicates that there is an important distinction. The idea is that while there are other gods, they are other people’s gods, not ours. It’s fine if those other people worship them; we are not allowed to.

Some poking around suggests that I was mistaken about the timing of the shift from monolatry to monotheism, so thanks for questioning me on that. The various sources I’ve come across all seem to put the date around the time of the Babylonian exile, so 6th century BCE (here’s another one that’s clearly written). Deuteronomy, in which the text of the Sh’ma is found, was mostly composed in the 7th century BCE, and partly during the exile. There’s some speculation that monotheism developed as a response by the educated elite to the cataclysm of exile, and some that Persian Zoroastrianism may have been a relevant influence.

It must have been a trend: Greek religion was also showing monotheistic drift by the time of Plato and Socrates (5th century BCE); many gods were still officially recognized, but Zeus was definitely expanding in importance and starting to take on those omni- characteristics that predominate in philosophical monotheism. I was aware that Greek philosophy influenced the early development of Christian theology, and I had thought that was where principled monotheism had come from; it looks like monotheism was an earlier development, and it was more philosophical theology – issues like the problem of evil, which may or may not have originated with Epicurus – that came from the Greeks. And that might have entered Judaism directly, without being mediated by Christianity.

I don’t want to get into the issue of whether Christianity is “really” monotheistic with the trinity and the saints and all that. Syncretism, appealing to local pagans, whatever. The moral landscape of Christianity is distinctively monotheistic: there is one source of goodness and power, and any conflicting forces are (a) evil and (b) ultimately subordinate. The pagan worldview recognizes multiple competing forces, and while different groups of people may have different divine allegiances, it’s not really a matter of “good” vs. “evil.” The Trojan War as related in the Iliad is a case in point: different gods took different sides, and the Trojans were still regarded as noble and heroic, even though the perspective was Greek. One thing Judaism has in common with various pagan religions (and some but not all forms of Zoroastrianism, apparently) but not with Christianity and Islam is the absence of proselytism. It is kind of unusual for a monotheistic religion to be tribal rather than universalistic… but I guess since Judaism doesn’t really have a concept of “salvation” it might not matter that much.

Addendum: I also don’t give a crap about whether Taika gave a more accurate representation of the Norse gods. That wasn’t, as I understood it, the goal of the MCU Thor movies. I doubt very much that he’s read the Eddas but the writers of “Thor 1” and “The Avengers” hadn’t. (Markus & McFeely are another story.) If that’s what he was aiming for, he did the wrong assignment. But I also doubt very much that he had any such aim in mind.

eliannaeldari replied to your post “How can you come from a monotheistic family and have a deep…”

(1/7) Um, no, we never ever ever believed in the validity of multiple Gods as an aspect of our religion, though paganism was definitely a problem for us in biblical times. There are multiple stories of god breaking idols, etc, but that’s intended to demonstrate that they were just “ivory and wood, silver and marble”, “eyes that do not see, lips that do not speak, and ears that do not hear”. This whole thing is seriously misguided, I’m sorry. Taika seems to have followed

(2/7) A charachterization closer to that described in the eddas than in the comics, but that’s probably due to him just going ahead and reading the eddas. They aren’t all that hard to get a hold of.

(3/7) I know very little about Islam, but while in Judaism god is described as jealous, it’s never “of other Gods”, it’s more like possessive. According to Judaism, there are no other Gods, and large factions of Judaism don’t believe in any non-god supernatural forces whatsoever. Christianity is mostly only considered monothiest by Christians, and while some Jewish sages say that it is, plenty say that it’s polythiesm, especially Catholicism and any involving the Trinity or

(4/7) Saints. We aren’t even allowed to pray in a church- aren’t even really supposed to go in them, though many people are lax about that. Mosques, on the other hand, we’re allowed to pray in- though are not supposed to take part in Muslim services. We have hymns and descriptions and poetry and legal writings from before Jesus was even a glimmer in his parents’ eyes about the oneness, unity, and lone existence of god. That doesn’t mean that Jews back then followed the

(5/7) Mitzvot/rules any more than they/,we do now, but that’s entirely different than claiming that *as a matter if religion* we acknowledged foreign Gods.

(6/7) We say, three times a day, (plus it’s supposed to be the last thing we say before we die) “hear Israel: the Lord is our God, the Lord is one”.

(7/7) God absolutely doesn’t want us wasting our time and efforts worshipping God’s that don’t exist, instead of following his commandments. That’s made pretty damn clear. Now, to be honest, *I believe in a “clockmaker” god, and am no longer orthodox*. But I couldn’t let this lie, as it’s very misinformed and misleading. I assume that OP simply didn’t have as much information, and was writing in good faith, but that doesn’t mean that the analysis is based in fact.

OK, first of all, @eliannaeldari – I am Jewish. Not religiously, anymore, but by heritage and upbringing. But I grew up Reform Jewish, in a family and a congregation that respected secular academic scholarship… and of course I’m in academia now, studying a period in history when secular Biblical scholarship and history was a relatively new thing that was (along with Darwin) contributing to Europe’s religious crisis.

My information – coming from the cantor at the synagogue where I grew up, as well as from interacting with scholars of Jewish history in religious studies departments – is that very early Judaism embraced monolatry, the worship of only one god, rather than monotheism, the belief in the existence of only one god. I was under the impression that that was the scholarly consensus. The Jewish Virtual Library concurs; the Wikipedia article on monolatry cites a number of scholars who defend this thesis; My Jewish Learning, a site for prospective converts, teaches the controversy (so to speak), but only cites two scholars who hold that Judaism was monotheistic from the beginning.

So no, I was not claiming that we ever “believed in the validity of multiple Gods as an aspect of our religion.” It is not clear whether by validity you meant “actual existence” or “worth and acceptable worship.” The concept of monolatry indicates that there is an important distinction. The idea is that while there are other gods, they are other people’s gods, not ours. It’s fine if those other people worship them; we are not allowed to.

Some poking around suggests that I was mistaken about the timing of the shift from monolatry to monotheism, so thanks for questioning me on that. The various sources I’ve come across all seem to put the date around the time of the Babylonian exile, so 6th century BCE (here’s another one that’s clearly written). Deuteronomy, in which the text of the Sh’ma is found, was mostly composed in the 7th century BCE, and partly during the exile. There’s some speculation that monotheism developed as a response by the educated elite to the cataclysm of exile, and some that Persian Zoroastrianism may have been a relevant influence.

It must have been a trend: Greek religion was also showing monotheistic drift by the time of Plato and Socrates (5th century BCE); many gods were still officially recognized, but Zeus was definitely expanding in importance and starting to take on those omni- characteristics that predominate in philosophical monotheism. I was aware that Greek philosophy influenced the early development of Christian theology, and I had thought that was where principled monotheism had come from; it looks like monotheism was an earlier development, and it was more philosophical theology – issues like the problem of evil, which may or may not have originated with Epicurus – that came from the Greeks. And that might have entered Judaism directly, without being mediated by Christianity.

I don’t want to get into the issue of whether Christianity is “really” monotheistic with the trinity and the saints and all that. Syncretism, appealing to local pagans, whatever. The moral landscape of Christianity is distinctively monotheistic: there is one source of goodness and power, and any conflicting forces are (a) evil and (b) ultimately subordinate. The pagan worldview recognizes multiple competing forces, and while different groups of people may have different divine allegiances, it’s not really a matter of “good” vs. “evil.” The Trojan War as related in the Iliad is a case in point: different gods took different sides, and the Trojans were still regarded as noble and heroic, even though the perspective was Greek. One thing Judaism has in common with various pagan religions (and some but not all forms of Zoroastrianism, apparently) but not with Christianity and Islam is the absence of proselytism. It is kind of unusual for a monotheistic religion to be tribal rather than universalistic… but I guess since Judaism doesn’t really have a concept of “salvation” it might not matter that much.

How can you come from a monotheistic family and have a deep understanding of polytheism?

philosopherking1887:

For background, this is in reference to (my bitching about) the post claiming that Taika Waititi has a better understanding of the gods of Norse mythology than Bad White Christian Joss Whedon, first (presumably) because he’s Maori and therefore closer to paganism (never mind that a significant proportion of the Maori population has been Christian since the 19th century), and then, according to a later commenter, because he’s Jewish (on his mother’s side) and therefore has a more down-to-earth conception of God.

This is not completely crazy, because while Judaism only recognizes one god, it has not always been strictly monotheistic in the sense in which Christianity and Islam are. According to ancient Jewish religion, the gods of other tribes/nations do exist, but we only worship one god, and there’s only one god worth worshiping, because he’s cooler than all the other gods (he created the world, so there) and can kick their asses any day. (There’s actually a story about that in First Samuel, when the Ark gets stolen and put in a Philistine temple and God comes out at night and breaks the idol of their god.) That’s why the Hebrew Bible says all that stuff about God being “a jealous god”; that wouldn’t make a whole lot of sense if God just didn’t want us wasting our time praying to gods that don’t exist. God has a personality, and it’s not always perfect; he’s jealous, he’s vengeful, he gets angry easily.

Since then, Judaism has become more properly monotheistic under the influence of Christianity in Europe and Islam under the medieval Caliphate (Maimonides, one of the most important Jewish theologians, lived in Caliphate-ruled Spain and wrote in Arabic. Sometimes empires can be cool). The God of Judaism has gotten closer to the omnipotent, omniscient, unfailingly benevolent God of philosophical monotheism, which runs you into the problem of evil… and that has definitely been a problem in Jewish history, especially recently. The main respect in which Judaism differs from Christianity (I don’t know about Islam) is that it doesn’t emphasize how sinful and unworthy human beings are compared to God. Sure, there’s some of that “what are we that You should take notice of us?” stuff in the psalms… but the fact remains that God has not only taken notice of us, but made an agreement with us on more or less equal terms; that’s what the covenant is. Paul claimed that the whole point of the covenant was to demonstrate that human beings are incapable of living up to God’s standards of goodness on their own, which is why they needed God to step in and save them (from Himself, apparently). Jews don’t buy that. Yes, it’s hard to do what God demands of us. Try anyway. When you mess up, apologize to God and to the people you’ve wronged, then try again.

I’m honestly not sure what any of that has to do with Taika Waititi’s and Joss Whedon’s portrayal of Thor and Loki, except that maybe someone raised Jewish is used to the idea of a god being an asshole and going overboard on punishing people (*cough*electrocution*cough*), which God definitely does in the Books of Moses. But rabbinic Judaism is as likely to try to justify that as Christianity is. And also I just don’t think it’s true that Whedon was trying to portray Thor as a perfect Christ figure and Loki as a completely evil Satan. European Christian culture has evolved; we have Milton’s Satan, we have Goethe’s Mephistopheles, we have flawed and human versions of Jesus. Whedon is well-read and educated; he refers to existentialist philosophy and the canon of great Western literature – including pre-Christian classical literature – in his work. If all people are seeing is a simplistic black and white Jesus vs. Satan, that’s their problem, not his.

I spent way too long writing this little essay, so I’m reblogging it in hopes that someone will actually see it.

How can you come from a monotheistic family and have a deep understanding of polytheism?

For background, this is in reference to (my bitching about) the post claiming that Taika Waititi has a better understanding of the gods of Norse mythology than Bad White Christian Joss Whedon, first (presumably) because he’s Maori and therefore closer to paganism (never mind that a significant proportion of the Maori population has been Christian since the 19th century), and then, according to a later commenter, because he’s Jewish (on his mother’s side) and therefore has a more down-to-earth conception of God.

This is not completely crazy, because while Judaism only recognizes one god, it has not always been strictly monotheistic in the sense in which Christianity and Islam are. According to ancient Jewish religion, the gods of other tribes/nations do exist, but we only worship one god, and there’s only one god worth worshiping, because he’s cooler than all the other gods (he created the world, so there) and can kick their asses any day. (There’s actually a story about that in First Samuel, when the Ark gets stolen and put in a Philistine temple and God comes out at night and breaks the idol of their god.) That’s why the Hebrew Bible says all that stuff about God being “a jealous god”; that wouldn’t make a whole lot of sense if God just didn’t want us wasting our time praying to gods that don’t exist. God has a personality, and it’s not always perfect; he’s jealous, he’s vengeful, he gets angry easily.

Since then, Judaism has become more properly monotheistic under the influence of Christianity in Europe and Islam under the medieval Caliphate (Maimonides, one of the most important Jewish theologians, lived in Caliphate-ruled Spain and wrote in Arabic. Sometimes empires can be cool). The God of Judaism has gotten closer to the omnipotent, omniscient, unfailingly benevolent God of philosophical monotheism, which runs you into the problem of evil… and that has definitely been a problem in Jewish history, especially recently. The main respect in which Judaism differs from Christianity (I don’t know about Islam) is that it doesn’t emphasize how sinful and unworthy human beings are compared to God. Sure, there’s some of that “what are we that You should take notice of us?” stuff in the psalms… but the fact remains that God has not only taken notice of us, but made an agreement with us on more or less equal terms; that’s what the covenant is. Paul claimed that the whole point of the covenant was to demonstrate that human beings are incapable of living up to God’s standards of goodness on their own, which is why they needed God to step in and save them (from Himself, apparently). Jews don’t buy that. Yes, it’s hard to do what God demands of us. Try anyway. When you mess up, apologize to God and to the people you’ve wronged, then try again.

I’m honestly not sure what any of that has to do with Taika Waititi’s and Joss Whedon’s portrayal of Thor and Loki, except that maybe someone raised Jewish is used to the idea of a god being an asshole and going overboard on punishing people (*cough*electrocution*cough*), which God definitely does in the Books of Moses. But rabbinic Judaism is as likely to try to justify that as Christianity is. And also I just don’t think it’s true that Whedon was trying to portray Thor as a perfect Christ figure and Loki as a completely evil Satan. European Christian culture has evolved; we have Milton’s Satan, we have Goethe’s Mephistopheles, we have flawed and human versions of Jesus. Whedon is well-read and educated; he refers to existentialist philosophy and the canon of great Western literature – including pre-Christian classical literature – in his work. If all people are seeing is a simplistic black and white Jesus vs. Satan, that’s their problem, not his.