pennie-dreadful:

More Infinity War thoughts

Something occured to me. When Thanos kills Loki, he says something like “there will be no resurrection this time”. So…does that mean that in TDW, Loki didn’t just barely survive getting the shit stabbed out of him, but actually died and was brought back to life? Or is that line a reference to when he (or his lackeys, whatever) found Loki in the void? Did he actually succeed in killing himself and Thanos somehow brought him back? 🤔

He might mean “resurrection” figuratively. Loki’s return from apparent death is much like a resurrection in the minds of those who thought him dead.

juliabohemian:

Another Post Infinity War Drabble

Under the cut, because spoilers

And just like that they are back atop Stark Tower again. They are face to face, grappling and sparring like animals, as the world comes undone around them.

“Brother, help me put an end to this,” Thor insists. It’s different this time. He’s eager, persistent, confident. “We can do it together.”

He can see from Loki’s face that he knows something is amiss. Something has changed. They should not be here now, like this. These events have already taken place, as have so many other things, some of them dark and terrible. Thor notices that it takes some getting used to, this shifting back and forth through time. He finds it not at all unlike a waking dream. Somehow he expected that it would come more easily to Loki.

“You don’t know,” Loki rambles. He grips the scepter with both hands, clutching it against his chest. “You don’t know…you don’t know what he’s capable of. This will end his way, one way or another…Thanos will have his way…” He’s breathing rapidly and so his words come out in harsh, laborious pants. His eyes are wide and fearful, darting back and forth.

“Loki, please…” Thor begins. “You must listen to me…”

“I can’t…I can’t…this is madness…it’s madness…”

Thor reaches for the other man. But Loki seems so fragile right now, that he’s not sure if it’s safe to even touch him.

“You can trust me…”

“No…no…it’s madness…”

Loki lets go of the scepter with his right hand. His fingers creep towards his own throat, as if to pry off some invisible force.

“Brother, help me. I’m choking…I’m choking…”

Thor’s soul aches when reminded of Loki’s brutal end. Even with all of the shifting back and forth, it still feels so fresh in his mind. It pains him to know that Loki might be reliving it somehow. He longs to soothe his brother’s fears, but he knows they don’t have the time.

“Loki you have to calm down!” Thor yells. He must roar to be heard over the din and confusion.

Loki’s eyes are immediately shut tight. He raises the scepter in front of his face in a defensive gesture. Thor’s heart sinks when he realizes that his brother is anticipating violence.

Softly and gently he reaches for Loki’s free hand, and presses the palm of it firmly against his own forehead.

Thor has never given up any degree of control to Loki before, not really. He’s learned that it’s easier to allow Loki to spy and stalk him from a safe distance, than to simply engage in full disclosure. Certain barriers have always been necessary between them, for both their sake. But today that will not do. Thor knows that today, Loki needs more.

“I invite you to look into my mind, Brother. See that you can trust me. See that I feel nothing but love for you.”

Loki opens his eyes. His expression is still one of sheer panic. Thor knows that he doesn’t trust people easily, and right now he cannot even trust reality.

“No, I…”

“Loki, please…”

Loki swallows several times, as though he is attempting to literally consume his distress. Finally, he lets his eyes fall closed again. His fingers curl, relaxing around the roundness of his brother’s head.

Thor can feel the other man entering his mind. Even with permission given, it’s still an invasion of sorts. He relaxes as much as he can, trying to let go of any lingering anger or resentment. He descends into the moist depths of his own subconscious. He grabs hold of that which is sweetest and most tender, and holds it up as an offering. Then he waits for Loki to meet him there.

His mind is immediately flooded with images. There’s a vast, green field, and a steep cliff, overlooking a deep pool. The colors are so rich and inviting. There are two boys -one blonde and one dark- holding hands and running. They count together, a practiced ritual. They scream and laugh as they leap to the water below. After they land, they race to the surface, gasping for air. They make their way to the shore, scrambling onto the rocks. Their clothes are sticking to their tiny bodies. They slog over to the grass and fling themselves onto it, lying on their backs. They gaze up into the clouds. It’s all so bright, so real, and so right now-

“Okay,” Loki says. He blinks several times, before slowly passing the scepter to his brother. “Okay.”

iscariotsss:

dsudis:

hannahrhen:

ohfreckle:

I survived Torchwood and Ianto, nothing can stop me. 

/looks pointedly at @dsudis

IDK, bro, at this point it would just be like pausing Groundhog Day halfway through to be really upset about Phil and the groundhog dying, and writing fix-it fic for that. Is there gonna be stuff I want to fix? Probably, because it’s Marvel and they tend to find ways to disappoint me, but at this point I’ve only seen the first half of a five-hour movie about a macguffin that allows its wielder to wind back time and rearrange the fabric of reality. Ask me for a reaction when the movie’s actually over.

THIS

The Loki fandom is having some trouble, though, because we don’t know if that one will be reversed. The dust people are fine, obviously. We’re just not confident that Marvel cares enough about our fave to give him meaningful screentime or a death that isn’t fucking stupid.

Philosophy in “Infinity War” Part I: Thanos vs. Ultron

As promised, I’m going to start talking about some of the philosophical issues raised in Avengers: Infinity War, and this first one gives me an opportunity to discuss something I’ve meant to for a while: why I find Ultron so interesting. Spoilers and long discussion are under the cut.

We find out in IW that Thanos wants to kill half of the living things in the universe because of his views about overpopulation and scarcity, which align with those of Thomas Malthus: that populations will always tend to expand beyond the means of society to provide for them, resulting in poverty, disease, and conflict. Malthus, of course, never proposed mass murder as a way to prevent these terrible outcomes, though he did think that famine and war, as the natural consequences of overpopulation, were God’s and/or nature’s way of correcting the problem – and of (futilely) cautioning humanity against reproducing beyond its means. We also find out that Thanos arrived at these views based on harsh experience: his home planet, Titan, experienced ecological catastrophe as a result of overpopulation. Thanos warned his people as the catastrophe approached and proposed his solution – random culling of the population – but he was, of course, dismissed as a madman. He now lives (sometimes) on the lifeless, desert-like ruins of Titan, applies his solution to planets that he thinks are reproducing beyond their means – including Gamora’s home planet – and seeks the Infinity Stones so that he can apply it to the universe as a whole.

It seems obvious to me – and should be obvious to him – that this is only a temporary solution. He claims that the standard of living on Gamora’s home planet improved dramatically after he halved its population; but if that’s the case, then unless Thanos was also distributing free birth control and family planning education, people would just take advantage of their new prosperity to have more children. Maybe with all the Infinity Stones in the Gauntlet, he envisioned himself or one of his disciples doing The Snap every few centuries?

I’ve seen some commentary suggesting that Thanos’s outlook is only comprehensible or even remotely sympathetic from a very pro-capitalist standpoint which ignores the fact that capitalism generates artificial scarcity. There’s certainly something to that criticism; “Malthusian” views are usually dismissed in the same breath as “social Darwinism” as artifacts of 19th-century and/or mid-20th-century elitist, racist, greed-driven ideology. I think there’s a reason Titan’s demise was depicted as an ecological catastrophe, considering the looming threat of climate change. Burning fossil fuels was a major part of how humanity harnessed the energy resources to be able to overcome natural scarcity, and now it’s biting us in the ass. That said, the technological advances that were enabled by the burning of fossil fuels for energy would probably enable us to stop burning fossil fuels if not for vested financial interests. And since population growth declines dramatically as societies become better educated and have more gender equality, it seems like it should be possible to stabilize a planet’s population so that it never exceeds the ecosystem’s ability to sustain it without resorting to mass murder. So yes, Thanos’s perspective and imagination seem extremely limited, and he’s drawing the wrong lesson from what happened to Titan. I guess he’s just really pessimistic about any society’s ability to overcome greed and education inequality…?

Thanos’s philosophical reasons for supporting mass murder of course call to mind another villain with philosophical reasons for mass murder (indeed, specicide, if that’s a word): Ultron. Predictably, I think Ultron makes much better points than Thanos does because they’re founded on observations about human nature rather than speculation about economic necessity. From looking at all of recorded human history, Ultron concludes that humanity has no moral right to exist because human beings have always, everywhere, been horrible to each other. If we solved all the scarcity problems that motivate Thanos, that would probably cut down on violence, but it would not eliminate it. I’m not at all sure that it’s possible to civilize human beings to the point that violence, small-scale or large-scale, never happens. That’s why Ultron says that humanity “needs to evolve”: human nature would have to change fundamentally in order to prevent the horrors that have littered human history.

Of course there’s a moral question here: is it morally right to eliminate a kind of being whose existence is, on the whole, an evil, or does it incur rights simply in virtue of existing? Pretty clearly, Ultron (like Thanos) is making a utilitarian calculation: cause a moderate amount of suffering in the short term in order to prevent a greater amount of suffering over the long term. But is that an acceptable trade-off, when those who enjoy the benefits are not the same as those who bear the costs? This issue – consequentialist vs. deontological (i.e., rights-based, rule-based) ethics – is the same one that’s explored in Watchmen, where Adrian Veidt/Ozymandias represents consequentialism and Rorschach (Mr. Black and White) represents deontology. In the MCU, Tony seems to represent the consequentialist perspective while Steve represents the deontologist; this is especially clear in IW with all that “we don’t trade lives” stuff (which I’ll have to discuss in more detail later). I myself don’t come down on either side all the time; I think it depends on the scale of decision-making. When you’re in a position of authority over large numbers of people, you’re going to have to make some consequentialist calculations; but in small-scale interpersonal interactions, you should operate like a deontologist. Tony thinks on the large scale and in the long term; Steve treats everything like an interpersonal interaction. But even on the large scale, there are times when consequentialist calculations lead to (what seem to us like) horrific conclusions. Tony has a human moral compass that allows him to avoid those; Ultron represents Tony’s consequentialist instincts writ large, with no human emotions to keep them in check. But there’s another question here: are our emotions a moral correcting mechanism, or do they impair our judgment? Would machines actually be better moral reasoners than human beings?

Ultron’s conclusion also raises a couple of interesting issues from a specifically Nietzschean perspective: one (meta)ethical and one metaphysical. (I’m not sure whether it’s a coincidence that Ultron quotes Nietzsche: “Like the man said, ‘Whatever doesn’t kill me only makes me stronger.’”) The (meta)ethical issue (I’m calling it that because it doesn’t fit cleanly into either normative ethics or metaethics as practiced in contemporary philosophy, which is clearly a limitation of contemporary philosophy) is the one that motivates Nietzsche’s main philosophical project: If the (Christian-descended) morality of compassion and altruism – a morality that says that suffering and domination are the most terrible things, constituting an argument against the existence of anything that perpetuates them – leads us to the conclusion that humanity, or life in general, ought not to exist, then why should we buy into the morality of compassion? One man’s modus ponens is another man’s modus tollens – which, in English, translates to: one person who sees that a set of premises leads to a conclusion will just accept the conclusion; but another, finding the conclusion unacceptable, will instead reject one of the premises. Ultron, it seems, does not know how to reject the premise of the morality of compassion – and that is almost certainly because it’s part of what Tony and Bruce programmed into him. His purpose was to protect human beings from suffering and domination by preventing alien invasion; the assumption that violence, war, and conquest are bad is fundamental to his very existence. Put in the facts of human history – which make the prospects for an end to these things seem very dim – and consequentialist reasoning rules, and you get the conclusion he in fact comes to.

Vision seems to express a quasi-Nietzschean attitude in his conversation with Ultron toward the end: “Humans are odd. They think order and chaos are somehow opposites, and try to control what won’t be. But there is grace in their failings. … A thing isn’t beautiful because it lasts.” It’s interesting to me that Vision uses aesthetic terms in defense of humanity rather than moral ones. That’s another theme you find throughout Nietzsche’s writings. In The Birth of Tragedy (1872) he claims (under the influence of Wagner), “it is only as an aesthetic phenomenon that existence and the world are eternally justified”; by The Gay Science (1882), he has retreated to “As an aesthetic phenomenon existence is still bearable for us.” The world is not and cannot be good by the standards of the morality of compassion; suffering and exploitation are woven into its very fabric. The same is very likely true of humanity (and Nietzsche also thinks we wouldn’t like the result if humanity ever became entirely “good” in that sense…). If we judge them only by the standards of morality, they will always fall short; we must conclude that they are, on the whole, bad things, things that should not be. But humanity and existence can still be aesthetically interesting, even beautiful, in their mix of good and evil, smart and stupid, order and chaos.

The metaphysical question is: in what sense does the replacement of carbon-based human animals by robots count as an “evolution” of humanity rather than simply its extinction and the ascendance of something completely different? The movie encourages us to think about inheritance and legacy in nonstandard ways, most obviously by framing Ultron as Tony’s “child”: Ultron has learned some things from Tony and inherited some things from him via programming – and we are now accustomed to thinking of genetics as a kind of natural “programming.” Tony even calls Ultron “Junior” and says “You’re going to break your old man’s heart.” By extension, then, AI is the “child” of humanity in general, its “brainchild” – an expression that reflects how common procreation and childbirth metaphors are in talk of intellectual creativity (that’s all over the place in Nietzsche’s writing, btw). But the extreme difference between biological humanity and its AI “descendants” highlights a distinctively Nietzschean theme: the idea that success, for a species, is not a matter of its persistence in the same form, but of its “self-overcoming” (that’s an ideal that comes up a lot, for individuals as well as cultures and species). Often this means that the majority will have to perish, while only an unusual few survive: the mutants, the evolutionary vanguard (LOL, there’s another Marvel franchise…), the ones who are better adapted to changing conditions rather than the old environment that the species had previously been adapted for. The successor species might look very different from its progenitor species, even unrecognizable, but the former is still the legacy of the latter. What’s important is the survival of a lineage rather than the persistence of a type.

rogers-and-stark:

donkeysblog:

rogers-and-stark:

multifandom-wolf:

Wait a second…

Did Tony and Steve even see each other once during the whole movie??

Nope.The whole IW is like alternative reality where they lose, because Steve and Tony were not friends.If you notice in the movie everyone has forgiven everyone, everyone works together, except Steve and Tony. They do not have a single intersection.Marvel has one event where the universe dies, because Steve and Tony are not friends. The friendship of Steve with Bucky does not save the world. The love of Tony to Pepper does not save the world. It dies because Steve and Tony are not friends. This is to understand the importance of their relationship.

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Who knows, maybe Doc Strange gave time stone to Thanos, so he turned back the time and they had a chance to fix everything from the very beginning. Because the main problem in MCU is that there is simply no friendship between two main Marvel characters –  Steve and Tony.

Steve and Tony’s friendship (or lack thereof) is something that always really bothered me but I always just dismissed it for sloppy writing or something like that. BUT NOW IT ALL MAKES SENSE. WOW

Steve and Tony represent Idealism/Pragmatism false dichotomy in Marvel. And this thing is a main theme of almost all their stories.
But the truth is we do not always have to choose between pragmatism and idealism. Nourish both. The only conflict is that each one’s pointless without the other.
Ideals cannot be realized without pragmatic ways of getting there;
pragmatic solutions need to be guided by ideals to define what counts as
progress.
And when Steve and Tony work together, when they have each other’s back they can save the world, they can prevent a war.

They are most reveal
themselves only when they complement each other.

Like Tony said

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But when they are at odds with each other everything is just falling apart.

Civil War (comic Civil War, not the stupid bullshit that Russo brothers produced) is actually a very cool thing and one of my favorite stories. It shows us that being friends does not mean being the same. Yes, friends can have different views, they can insist on their rightness and they can quarrel. And in the end  victory does not matter for Tony, because Steve died. ALL OF THIS WASN’T WORTH IT BECAUSE HIS FRIEND DIED.

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They are so important to each other and their cooperation is so important for Marvel that when their connection is completely broken Marvel Universe literally dies.

They are friends who argue all the time, because in their dispute truth is born.

The lack of friendship between them is not a new modern vision, not a bad writing, it is the undermining of the foundations of Marvel world.