Tag: fandom disagreements

I think it’s time for a chat, fandom.

fraifraii:

lunariagold:

darklittlestories:

raven-brings-light:

philosopherking1887:

I have made it no secret that I am greatly dissatisfied with many aspects of Thor: Ragnarok, most especially the characterizations of Thor and Loki and the discontinuity with their characterization in earlier movies. Among more extreme Loki fans, including those who (reportedly) used to call themselves “Loki’s Resistance” and are widely known as “Loki-apologists” (I prefer “unconditional Loki-justifiers,” for reasons of precision), people have no trouble saying that they disliked the movie because of the way it thinned out Loki’s character. Loki fans who are in networks with the Loki-justifiers but do not hate Thor (as so many of the justifiers do) also have no trouble pointing out that Ragnarok messed up Thor’s character, virtually disregarding the process of maturation he had gone through in previous MCU movies.

However, it seems that more moderate Loki fans (who do acknowledge his flaws and misdeeds), including but not limited to Thor/Loki shippers, have been feeling pressured into silence about their dissatisfaction with the movie. Four such people have communicated with me about it under their own names, two relatively openly in replies to my posts, two in private messages; a few more have expressed similar sentiments in anonymous asks. I’m kind of concerned that smart, thoughtful people feel like they can’t express their views for fear of being shunned or bombarded with hate. (About a movie, FFS; this isn’t a matter of life and death!)

Maybe this is just a function of the overall climate of Tumblr, which a friend of mine has characterized as just a bunch of young people all agreeing with each other (in my more bitter moments, I’ve used the terms “groupthink” and “circle-jerk”). It seems that around here group identities revolve around people all sharing the same views. Arguments (or firefights, really) can only be had on a hostile footing across group lines; there’s not much of a chance for productive or friendly disagreement within a community. As a philosopher (and a Jew), this strikes me as extremely bizarre and more than a little creepy. I disagree with other philosophers about a lot of things, and we argue, and raise objections to each other’s papers, but we’re still friends, still enjoy many of the same things, still share (largely) the same basic values. There are subcommunities, to be sure, of those who agree about certain issues, but we are still a community, engaged in a common enterprise, in spite of (indeed, driven by!) our disagreements.

What can we do to make the fandom such that people feel comfortable expressing their actual views even if they disagree with the majority of the community, or just (as it may be) with the loudest voices? If the fandom is already open to such disagreement, how can we reassure people that they won’t be ostracized for holding minority/unpopular views?

I hope that some people with more standing in the fandom than I have will take an active part in opening it up to productive disagreement. All these “I thought it was just me” and “everyone’s been telling me I’m crazy” and “I was so relieved to see your post” and “I feel like I should just stfu if my interpretation is different from the main one” messages are making me kind of alarmed and kind of sad.

Signal boosting and adding –

I didn’t even know this was a problem until recently, and the fact that people are actually nervous to share their opinions about a movie is worrisome.

I too have some issues with Ragnarok, but I also have various issues with all the movies, and I don’t think I’ve ever been shy about expressing them…if I ever don’t bring them up, it’s just because I prefer talking about the things that I DO like. I do realize I have a pretty thick skin, though.

Anyway, I for one welcome all opinions both positive and negative about Ragnarok, and I enjoy discussions among people with different viewpoints. How better to think about issues from different angles, or have the chance to further explore why you feel a certain way, or even maybe come to change your mind about things? I’ve done all of those in the past. I sincerely hope that we as a fandom are mature enough not to flame each other over differences of opinion.

Please no one ever feel the need to keep quiet on my account! And I hope that maybe people will start to get more comfortable with expressing non-majority opinions.

PREACH!

Though I adored Ragnarok—probably because I was prepared for mindless fun and I got even more fun than I’d expected (and I didn’t find it very mindless)—I can’t stand fandom wank. It’s fascinating as hell to chat about our differences of experience and analysis of the films.

But yeah, I agree it is very jarring to have three distinct moods for the films that should have continuity but instead we have three sets of writers/directors who have vastly different takes and HUGE resulting mood whiplash. I get that very much.

Yeah I basically made a conscious decision to just enjoy Ragnarok for what it was- and be glad that Thor/Loki were together… and also Grandgoldblum- and not get all deep into criticism. I didn’t like everything; for instance Thor left me completely cold and I get how the mood is so different than previous films it can be jarring. In general, I share deeper meta opinions with closest friends because they know where I’m at already and it’s easier to break it down with them than with a bunch of people over the void.

I can get very annoyed and passionate over some things I don’t like, but I do not take it out on other people. I would walk away and take a breather if it would get up my crack this badly. Everybody has a right to enjoy what they do, or not enjoy it; it’s that simple. Be like Siskel and Ebert: You can argue opposite views until blue in the face but it’s not personal; you can still be respectful.

Thank you for paving the way of open discussion…I wrote a first reactions post, because I felt so strongly about it. But I deleted it because I edited it so many times,  that it lost its point.Mainly because 98% of people not only loved it but adored it. I liked maybe 10% of it, so didn’t want to crash the party. Because I basically strongly felt the opposite. :”D

The main reason for me was Thor, as a main character, had no continuity to the other Thor’s. He became a frat boy. He lost all his previously built depth. It felt like he didn’t care about anything at all. It was even far from many comic Thors. The intense emotions were gone. So there was nothing to grasp onto. As the main character, you have to have at least that. ALL familiarity was gone along with his hair. Too many changes at once.

Loki was mostly ok. As mischief he’s a morally ambiguous character. Whether redemption arc or not, how his strength and intellect were downplayed so much for comic relief was not believable to me..

It felt very much like Taika wanted to disarm him to put Chris more in the spotlight. Which Is understandable on Chris’s POV. Tom seemed like he was forced into it though.

I love Gotg, but within its own established world. The anus thing. I feel like Tom was mentally cringing. He plays way more developed characters than that.

I don’t get how the electrocution scene could be funny. Loki deserved it. Undoubtedly. but how was it funny? I don’t see Thor even doing that. At least not leaving him like that anyway. I don’t see how it could be funny? .-.

Warriors 3.

Jane MIA. She got a sentence of explanation,
even though she was a big presence in TDW.

It was overall a bit sloppy. the ends were not only left untied but sometimes ignored all together.

er… that said.. I respect that everyone enjoyed it. And adored it. Its okay 🙂 Its okay that most people liked it. I just wish it wasn’t canon. Because non Ragnarok fanfic is going to be near impossible to find now. Ragnarok is canon now. I still have hope in AU though.. 🙂 

Reblogging with permission. Some civil, reasoned criticism. (And fortunately, if people get any hate for reblogs of this post, it will also come to me and we can laugh about it together.)

I think it’s time for a chat, fandom.

lunariagold:

darklittlestories:

raven-brings-light:

philosopherking1887:

I have made it no secret that I am greatly dissatisfied with many aspects of Thor: Ragnarok, most especially the characterizations of Thor and Loki and the discontinuity with their characterization in earlier movies. Among more extreme Loki fans, including those who (reportedly) used to call themselves “Loki’s Resistance” and are widely known as “Loki-apologists” (I prefer “unconditional Loki-justifiers,” for reasons of precision), people have no trouble saying that they disliked the movie because of the way it thinned out Loki’s character. Loki fans who are in networks with the Loki-justifiers but do not hate Thor (as so many of the justifiers do) also have no trouble pointing out that Ragnarok messed up Thor’s character, virtually disregarding the process of maturation he had gone through in previous MCU movies.

However, it seems that more moderate Loki fans (who do acknowledge his flaws and misdeeds), including but not limited to Thor/Loki shippers, have been feeling pressured into silence about their dissatisfaction with the movie. Four such people have communicated with me about it under their own names, two relatively openly in replies to my posts, two in private messages; a few more have expressed similar sentiments in anonymous asks. I’m kind of concerned that smart, thoughtful people feel like they can’t express their views for fear of being shunned or bombarded with hate. (About a movie, FFS; this isn’t a matter of life and death!)

Maybe this is just a function of the overall climate of Tumblr, which a friend of mine has characterized as just a bunch of young people all agreeing with each other (in my more bitter moments, I’ve used the terms “groupthink” and “circle-jerk”). It seems that around here group identities revolve around people all sharing the same views. Arguments (or firefights, really) can only be had on a hostile footing across group lines; there’s not much of a chance for productive or friendly disagreement within a community. As a philosopher (and a Jew), this strikes me as extremely bizarre and more than a little creepy. I disagree with other philosophers about a lot of things, and we argue, and raise objections to each other’s papers, but we’re still friends, still enjoy many of the same things, still share (largely) the same basic values. There are subcommunities, to be sure, of those who agree about certain issues, but we are still a community, engaged in a common enterprise, in spite of (indeed, driven by!) our disagreements.

What can we do to make the fandom such that people feel comfortable expressing their actual views even if they disagree with the majority of the community, or just (as it may be) with the loudest voices? If the fandom is already open to such disagreement, how can we reassure people that they won’t be ostracized for holding minority/unpopular views?

I hope that some people with more standing in the fandom than I have will take an active part in opening it up to productive disagreement. All these “I thought it was just me” and “everyone’s been telling me I’m crazy” and “I was so relieved to see your post” and “I feel like I should just stfu if my interpretation is different from the main one” messages are making me kind of alarmed and kind of sad.

Signal boosting and adding –

I didn’t even know this was a problem until recently, and the fact that people are actually nervous to share their opinions about a movie is worrisome.

I too have some issues with Ragnarok, but I also have various issues with all the movies, and I don’t think I’ve ever been shy about expressing them…if I ever don’t bring them up, it’s just because I prefer talking about the things that I DO like. I do realize I have a pretty thick skin, though.

Anyway, I for one welcome all opinions both positive and negative about Ragnarok, and I enjoy discussions among people with different viewpoints. How better to think about issues from different angles, or have the chance to further explore why you feel a certain way, or even maybe come to change your mind about things? I’ve done all of those in the past. I sincerely hope that we as a fandom are mature enough not to flame each other over differences of opinion.

Please no one ever feel the need to keep quiet on my account! And I hope that maybe people will start to get more comfortable with expressing non-majority opinions.

PREACH!

Though I adored Ragnarok—probably because I was prepared for mindless fun and I got even more fun than I’d expected (and I didn’t find it very mindless)—I can’t stand fandom wank. It’s fascinating as hell to chat about our differences of experience and analysis of the films.

But yeah, I agree it is very jarring to have three distinct moods for the films that should have continuity but instead we have three sets of writers/directors who have vastly different takes and HUGE resulting mood whiplash. I get that very much.

Yeah I basically made a conscious decision to just enjoy Ragnarok for what it was- and be glad that Thor/Loki were together… and also Grandgoldblum- and not get all deep into criticism. I didn’t like everything; for instance Thor left me completely cold and I get how the mood is so different than previous films it can be jarring. In general, I share deeper meta opinions with closest friends because they know where I’m at already and it’s easier to break it down with them than with a bunch of people over the void.

I can get very annoyed and passionate over some things I don’t like, but I do not take it out on other people. I would walk away and take a breather if it would get up my crack this badly. Everybody has a right to enjoy what they do, or not enjoy it; it’s that simple. Be like Siskel and Ebert: You can argue opposite views until blue in the face but it’s not personal; you can still be respectful.

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed many things about Ragnarok, too. I thought Jeff Goldblum playing the Grandmaster playing Jeff Goldblum was delightful, and I cracked up pretty loudly when “Pure Imagination” from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory started playing on the weird introduction ride. Tessa Thompson as Valkyrie was badass, relatable, sexy, and wonderful (along with her giant flaming bottles of space booze). There were even some genuine moments of family pathos that I appreciated, including Odin telling Loki that Frigga would have been proud of his spell. I liked three interactions between Thor and Loki: the one in the circular prison hallway where Thor throws rocks at Loki’s projection (a little childish, but also amusing); the one in the elevator before the “Get Help” bit; and of course the “I’m here” at the end. Those can provide sustenance for emotionally satisfying fanfiction, even if we have to ignore most of the way Thor and Loki were characterized in order to take full advantage of them.

But sharing critical opinions only with close friends doesn’t always help. Two of the people who have talked to me said specifically that they have shared their concerns with friends and that’s how they got the impression that they were alone in those concerns; one even said that their friends told them they were “imagining things.” These are people who wouldn’t have started conversations with me if I hadn’t put my dissenting views out in the open. So no, it’s not about “taking out” my annoyance on other people; it’s about trying to dispel the illusion of universal agreement so that people don’t feel isolated and “smothered” (their word).