Thor’s last words to Loki vs. Loki’s last words to Thor
Even tho Loki does care about Thor even if he has an hard time admitting it, he’s still the worst brother tbh. He betrayed Thor like an hundred times over, and Thanos attacking the ship and killing half of the asgardians is entirely his fault. Thor saying this was means to be a funny scene but if we want to read more into it, he was refferring to the fact that Loki stole the tesseract while they were in the middle of a huge battle and put a huge target on the asgardian ship. In the end, Loki choose the right side but it doesn’t mean everything he did before is forgotten and if he had came out of it alive,Thor would have totally punched him in the face and then he would have hugged him
Sigh…There are so many wrong things in your statement, I’m gonna put a little bit of my thought.
“
He betrayed Thor like an hundred times over”
Loki didn’t betray Thor “a hundred times over” , he is pretty loyal to Thor for a century, accompany Thor when Thor is still he is an arrogant war-monger.
“
Even tho Loki does care about Thor even if he has an hard time admitting it, he’s still the worst brother tbh.”
Are you gonna put aside all wrong doings Thor does to Loki like this one :
And then just straight out labeling Loki as “the worst brother”?
Yeah Thor used to be a prick but he grew out of it and being arrogant is nothing compared to what Loki has done. I love Loki, I really do but from Thor’s point of view, he’s been betrayed multiple times by him. You’re using a gif of one of his worst betreyal, pushing Thor on this stupid mission knowing it would end badly and could lead to a war so Thor wouldn’t be king. Sure, it’s a good thing Thor didn’t became king then bc he was immature but Loki just wanted the throne for himself, he didn’t care for the well being of Asgard. And then he goes to earth and tell Thor his father is dead, how fucked up is that? And then he try to kill Thor when he’s mortal. Still, after all that, Thor try to save Loki from falling and is heartbroken over his death.
Then New York happen, Loki has been tortured yeah but he doesn’t mind killing hundred of people that he knows his brother is protecting, he actually enjoy that and he stab Thor at the end.
Loki help Thor in the dark world but for his own revenge over his mother’s death and then, he still pretend to be dead so he can have the throne for himself, not caring as his brother, once again, cry over his death. The only good thing he does is saving Jane.
Thor ragnarok show us more of their wonderful relationship as children, funny but a little fucked up on loki’s part. Thor learn that Loki left Odin on earth which led to his death away from his people and the liberation of Hela. He doesn’t do anything to keep Thor from becoming a slave for the great master and try to betray him again when they leave but Thor is used to it by then and his plan doesn’t work. Okay, at the end, he makes the right call bc sometimes, he can be good and help save the asgardians but he can’t help taking the tesseract with him despite everything happening at the moment.
And it all lead it to infinity war which I already explained. But yeah, you’re right, Thor used to be a little arrogant before and sometimes though he was above his brother, which he technically was at this moment as he was heir to the throne and Loki was under his orders. But like I said, Thor grew out of his arrogant phase, thanks to loki’s “help” but Loki has always considered himself superior to Thor and I’m not sure he ever stopped, no matter how much he actually love his brother.
So yeah, Loki is the worst brother and anyone would have given up on him a long time ago but Thor is just that good.
“
Yeah Thor used to be a prick but he grew out of it and being arrogant is nothing compared to what Loki has done”
Thor has killed over 3000 people, while being a war-monger he is, he is no better than Loki himself. It’s just the way Thor killing those people is so fit with the Asgardian culture, not with a tricks or magic. Don’t try to justify Thor actions in the past with “he used to be a prick”.
“
pushing Thor on this stupid mission knowing it would end badly and could lead to a war so Thor wouldn’t be king
“
If you look more detail, Loki mission is to showing Thor arrogant and reckless side in front of Odin to prevent Thor from getting the throne because Thor at that time wasn’t fit. Too reckless, his arrogant side will cause many conflicts. What Loki doing to Thor in Thor (2011) is just like what Thor doing to Hela in Thor Ragnarok, they both prevented their sibling from getting the throne because in their eyes, their sibling is not fit enough.
“ You’re using a gif of one of his worst betreyal”
The scene where Thor told Loki to “Know his place” is Thor response to Loki advice to not attack those Frost Giant. Loki kindly asked Thor “Thor, please stop. Look around you, we are outnumbered”, and you know what Thor response “Know your place brother”, he straight out dismiss Loki, treating as Loki opinion didn’t matter, and the sad things is Loki didn’t even reply back, as if Thor dismiss him is just their usual habit. This scene actually implying to Thor and Loki dysfunctional relationship for 1000 years with Thor treating Loki as the inferior, along with Warrior Three and Sif.
“
he actually enjoy that and he stab Thor at the end.”
No, he didn’t. Right after Loki stabbed Thor, there is a tears in his eyes. He is not enjoying to stab Thor.
“
he still pretend to be dead so he can have the throne for himself”
Loki never pretended to be dead, he is actually getting badly injured saving Thor from Kurse, Kevin Feige and Tom Hiddleston already confirmed that in the interview. It’s just that the fate decided that Loki still survives, and then he decided to get revenge on Odin by taking the throne , it has nothing to do with Thor.
“
not caring as his brother, once again, cry over his death
“
The reason why Loki didn’t tell Thor why he is still alive because Thor promised him to return Loki back to the cell. “And afterward, this cell”- Thor promised Loki he would return Loki to his cell after using Loki help. Thor cries for Loki when he dies in the dark world but did Thor ever bother to bring and bury Loki body properly? No right? Shouldn’t Thor at least bring his body back to Asgard?
“
Thor ragnarok show us more of their wonderful relationship as children, funny but a little fucked up on loki’s part.
“
The original canon of Thor and Loki childhood (confirmed by Kevin Feige and Kenneth Branagh” is Loki is the looked down kid, he looked up to Thor, he respected Thor, while Thor is the golden child, and he treated his brother with a superior big brother mindset. However, Chris Hemsworth and Taika Watiti want to change Loki and Thor childhood, with Thor being the bullied kid and Loki is the bully. However that’s not the case since in Thor 1, we viewer already showed Thor and Loki childhood. Loki was the quiet one, and Thor was an aggressive child, “I will hunt all the monster down and slay them all !!”. Thor in the original canon is “more fucked up”
“
He doesn’t do anything to keep Thor from becoming a slave for the great master
“
Did you see the scene where Loki want to grieve together for Odin death with Thor? Loki did tried to get Thor to work together to get off from that place by overthrowing the Grandmaster first. And what is Thor response to him? No response, and then Thor just straight up accusing Loki “You faked your own death”.
“
try to betray him again when they leave but Thor is used to it by then and his plan doesn’t work
“
Loki only try to betray Thor after Thor straight up shading him in the elevator with “maybe there is still good in you” line, and he did it to keep Thor safe from Hela if you actually noticed. Thor clearly use reverse-psychology on Loki in that elevator scene so he can use Loki help later.
“
But like I said, Thor grew out of his arrogant phase, thanks to loki’s “help” but Loki has always considered himself superior to Thor
“
Loki considered himself as inferior to Thor, read all Thor novel. Thor treated him as inferior for a century and it’s effect Loki psychology. Unconsciously Loki considered himself as the inferior one and the reason why he want to fight Thor in Thor 1 and Avenger is to prove himself. You watch too much Thor ragnarok.
“
So yeah, Loki is the worst brother and anyone would have given up on him a long time ago but Thor is just that good.
“
And now you just straight up labeling Loki as the worst brother, and clearly ignoring Thor wrong doing to Loki (with an excuse like “Thor is only a little bit arrogant”. I suggest you, don’t have a black and white perspective, Thor treatment to Loki is just as bad as Loki treatment to Thor. Thor treated Loki as inferior and always dismiss Loki feeling, even in Ragnarok and Infinity War. Did Thor even try to understand Loki perspective? He just straight out labeling Loki, just like you did.
Thanks for the tag @rewritefate and @seiramili7 ( in this thread) ! I can’t believe what I just read! You guys covered everything. I just add a few things.
“Even tho Loki does care about Thor even if he has an hard time admitting it, he’s still the worst brother tbh.”
Loki is the one who ever verbally stated that he loves Thor, twice I might add and got “Thank you” as answer! He is the one that tolerated a life time of being treated as inferior and he still loves Thor to the point that he’s ready to sacrifice his life not only for Thor(twice!) but also for Thor’s girlfriend(twice!) to prevent his brother from getting hurt. And he is the worst brother?!?!
“Yeah Thor used to be a prick but he grew out of it and being arrogant is nothing compared to what Loki has done.”
He was more than just an arrogant person. He was the textbook narcissistic golden child before his banishment and the resulting abuse from this kind of personality will have a toll on anyone. And besides Loki was never in his right mind when he did all those horrible things.
“You’re using a gif of one of his worst betreyal, pushing Thor on this
stupid mission knowing it would end badly and could lead to a war so
Thor wouldn’t be king.”
“Loki’s worst betrayal”?! He did a service to their kingdom by preventing Thor from becoming the king! “Pushing Thor on this stupid mission”!? Oh my God! It’s not Loki’s fault that all Thor needed was an agreement with his opinion and feeling thrilled to have a chance in showing that he can be a better king than Odin! Loki didn’t push him to do anything!
“knowing it would end badly and could lead to a war so
Thor wouldn’t be king.” Did you miss the part when he told a guard to inform Odin so he prevent Thor from his stupid mission and getting them all killed
in the process? And the guard didn’t care enough to do it in time? Or the part that Heimdall let them go to Jotunheim despite the fact that it was forbidden. Or the part that Loki screamed that he never wanted the throne, only to be Thor’s equal? And all he attempted to do was prove himself worthy to Odin?
“Then New York happen, Loki has been tortured yeah but he doesn’t mind
killing hundred of people that he knows his brother is protecting, he
actually enjoy that and he stab Thor at the end.”
He doesn’t mind killing hundred of people? He enjoy that? I think you once again miss the part when he looked with horror to the destruction in the Avengers and told Thor with regret in his voice that it was too late to stop it. And you definitely miss the part when he cried while he stabbed Thor. Does all this seems like enjoyment to you? Also did you forget the part where Thor admitted killing thousands of people? Or the part where he was killing Jotuns all the while grinning and was excited because of it?
“he still pretend to be dead so he can have the throne for himself, not caring as his brother, once again, cry over his death.”
Yeah, because offering the throne to Thor means he wanted it for himself. It’s not Loki’s fault that Thor declined it! Oh my God!
“Thor learn that Loki left Odin on earth which led to his death away from his people and the liberation of Hela.”
“Loki has always considered himself superior to Thor and I’m not sure he
ever stopped, no matter how much he actually love his brother.”
How can someone miss all the signs!? It was always Thor who saw himself superior. It was always Loki who saw himself as inferior to Thor and wanted to prove himself equal. It’s the core of his problems!!!
Thanks for the tag @rewritefate and @seiramili7 🙂 You guys and @lucianalight have already said a lot of what I want to say. I’ll just add some of my reactions to this.
Firstly: SIGH.
“He betrayed Thor like a hundred times over”<- See, this is what happens when you get brainwashed by Gagnarok. You think
that because you believe the “I trust you, you betray me, round and
round in circles we go” nonsense that Gagnarok!Thor said, that’s it.
“Thanos attacking the ship and killing half of the asgardians is
entirely his fault”<-So it’s Loki’s fault, not Thanos’?
“Thor saying this was
means to be a funny scene”<- You’re right about this. When I went to
watch IW I was feeling so disappointed when Thor said to Loki “you really are
the worst brother”, but most of the other audience seemed to find it funny. So
yes, it was meant to be funny and also a clear reference to what Thor said to
Loki before: “maybe you’re not so bad after all”, which happens to be the only positive
affirmation Thor gave Loki in Gagnarok and is now negated just because he was
trying to be funny.
(Noteworthy fact: Thor was originally supposed to be a more serious
character in IW. But CH voiced concerns after Gagnarok portrayed the
character’s funnier side, apparently because he was “just so protective of what he built
with Taika” (his own words). That was why the IW writers Christopher Markus and
Stephen McFeely turned to TW for input, then rewrote Thor’s character and his
storyline. With this I think we can all make an educated guess as to how
that “worst brother” line came about.)
“Loki just wanted the
throne for himself, he didn’t care for the well being of Asgard.” <- First
of all I strongly suggest you watch the first Thor film again. Anyway, here are
a few quotes from Loki:
“That was just a bit
of fun, really. To ruin my brother’s big day, and to protect the realm from his idiotic rule for a while longer.”
“I love Thor more
dearly than any of you, but you know what he is. He’s arrogant, he’s reckless,
he’s dangerous! You saw how he was today. Is that what Asgard needs from its
King?”
“I never wanted the
throne, I only ever wanted to be your equal!”
“Then New York happen,
Loki has been tortured yeah but he doesn’t mind killing hundred of people that
he knows his brother is protecting, he actually enjoy that and he stab Thor at
the end.”<- I think you should rewatch the first Avengers film
too. Anyway here’s a screencap for your reference:
“Loki help Thor in the
dark world but for his own revenge over his mother’s death and then, he still
pretend to be dead so he can have the throne for himself, not caring as his
brother, once again, cry over his death. The only good thing he does is saving
Jane.” <- Some more quotes:
Tom:Loki’s death on Svartalfheim was written as
a death, and Chris and I played that scene for real. That was meant to be sort
of that he redeemed himself. He helped save his brother and helped save Jane
Foster, but he, in the process, sacrificed himself.
Feige: He is able to spin events, without ever
really lying to his brother, without ever actually betraying his brother, into
what is always wanted, which is sitting on the throne and saving his brother. That
last scene needed to work for people watching the movie for the first time, who
believed that it’s Odin talking to Thor, and then the surprise, but it also
needs to work a second and third time. Why is Odin saying those things? Why is
Loki saying those things to Thor? They’re very nice things, they’re very caring
things that he says to him. Is it partly because he loves his brother? I like
to think so. Is it also because that’s what his brother needs… to leave?
Perhaps.
Thor to Loki (Thor: Ragnarok novel): “In the past I demanded the throne when I hadn’t earned it, and then
refused the throne when Asgard needed me most.”
“Thor ragnarok show us
more of their wonderful relationship as children, funny but a little fucked up
on loki’s part.”<- I have ranted so much about Gagnarok by now it makes
me want to gag. In short Loki was ridiculously OOC and Thor wasn’t even Thor in
that film.
“So yeah, Loki is the
worst brother and anyone would have given up on him a long time ago but Thor is
just that good.”<- You know how Thor said something like “I’m only alive
because Fate wants me alive”? I disagree.
He’s only alive because his “worst brother” gave up the
Tesseract to save his thick head from getting crushed by Thanos and that’s a fact.
I don’t endorse the “Gagnarok” label – it’s entirely too easy for people to make fun of it and dismiss serious criticisms on account of a punny insulting nickname – but everything @rewritefate, @lucianalight, and @yume-no-fantasy say in the way of analysis of character and events is exactly right. Kudos to you guys for patiently going through yet another interpretation-challenged person’s regurgitated Ragnarok-dictated talking points.
And here’s this person, like so many other supposed Loki fans, saying “I love Loki, I really do, but” and then detailing how he’s a completely morally bankrupt, power-hungry, sadistic narcissist with no good reasons for doing anything he did. What, exactly, do they love? You can definitely “love” villains who have no redeeming personal qualities – in a way, I kind of “love” General Hux because he’s hilarious, and I definitely love his bizarre perpetual pissing contest of a relationship with Kylo Ren (yes, Kylux is my crack ship) – but not in anything like the way I love Loki. Loki was built from the first Thor movie as a character with depth, with complicated not-entirely-selfish motives, with severe distortions in his worldview but always with reasons you can comprehend and, on some level, sympathize with even when you strongly condemn his actions.
The fact that people are spouting claims about Loki’s motivations in previous film that contradict what you see onscreen but jibe with the claims about Loki that Ragnarok shoves down our throats indicates that it was entirely too successful in writing over the history of these characters and flattening everything into a simple black and white Thor=good and Loki=bad equation. And people are all too ready to accept that. I’d like to think it’s only the people who saw Ragnarok first and only later watched the other movies through its distorted lens, but I suspect some of the people gleefully latching onto this interpretation also claimed to have been fans of the previous movies even before Ragnarok came out. And the fact that they’re saying “Loki has always considered himself superior to Thor and I’m not sure he ever stopped” indicates that even the scene that never made it into Ragnarok, with Loki as an emo-goth Draco Malfoy-esque bully and Thor as the chubby bullied kid, has taken precedence in the minds of much of the fandom over things that actually were in canon, such as Thor reminding Loki of “his place” and Loki’s angry, impassioned confession – obviously not a calculated lie, if you just fucking watch the movie – “I only ever wanted to be your equal.”
It shouldn’t matter that casual MCU fans now worship at the shrine of Ragnarok and piss all over the previous characterizations of the main characters. But most of the people who consider themselves part of the Thor, Loki, Thor-and-Loki, and Thorki fandoms think this way, too. It makes me so sad and angry. Most of the people who claim to love the same characters I do really don’t; they love (or “love”) very different characters and then tell me I’m wrong for respecting the versions that were established first. I wish it were possible to build a wall between the people who still love Thor and Loki and the people who have allowed Thor* and Loki* (their Ragnarok versions) to be painted over them. They really should be two separate fandoms.
Loki is the Philosopher King 