And just like that they are back atop Stark Tower again. They are face to face, grappling and sparring like animals, as the world comes undone around them.
“Brother, help me put an end to this,” Thor insists. It’s different this time. He’s eager, persistent, confident. “We can do it together.”
He can see from Loki’s face that he knows something is amiss. Something has changed. They should not be here now, like this. These events have already taken place, as have so many other things, some of them dark and terrible. Thor notices that it takes some getting used to, this shifting back and forth through time. He finds it not at all unlike a waking dream. Somehow he expected that it would come more easily to Loki.
“You don’t know,” Loki rambles. He grips the scepter with both hands, clutching it against his chest. “You don’t know…you don’t know what he’s capable of. This will end his way, one way or another…Thanos will have his way…” He’s breathing rapidly and so his words come out in harsh, laborious pants. His eyes are wide and fearful, darting back and forth.
“Loki, please…” Thor begins. “You must listen to me…”
“I can’t…I can’t…this is madness…it’s madness…”
Thor reaches for the other man. But Loki seems so fragile right now, that he’s not sure if it’s safe to even touch him.
“You can trust me…”
“No…no…it’s madness…”
Loki lets go of the scepter with his right hand. His fingers creep towards his own throat, as if to pry off some invisible force.
“Brother, help me. I’m choking…I’m choking…”
Thor’s soul aches when reminded of Loki’s brutal end. Even with all of the shifting back and forth, it still feels so fresh in his mind. It pains him to know that Loki might be reliving it somehow. He longs to soothe his brother’s fears, but he knows they don’t have the time.
“Loki you have to calm down!” Thor yells. He must roar to be heard over the din and confusion.
Loki’s eyes are immediately shut tight. He raises the scepter in front of his face in a defensive gesture. Thor’s heart sinks when he realizes that his brother is anticipating violence.
Softly and gently he reaches for Loki’s free hand, and presses the palm of it firmly against his own forehead.
Thor has never given up any degree of control to Loki before, not really. He’s learned that it’s easier to allow Loki to spy and stalk him from a safe distance, than to simply engage in full disclosure. Certain barriers have always been necessary between them, for both their sake. But today that will not do. Thor knows that today, Loki needs more.
“I invite you to look into my mind, Brother. See that you can trust me. See that I feel nothing but love for you.”
Loki opens his eyes. His expression is still one of sheer panic. Thor knows that he doesn’t trust people easily, and right now he cannot even trust reality.
“No, I…”
“Loki, please…”
Loki swallows several times, as though he is attempting to literally consume his distress. Finally, he lets his eyes fall closed again. His fingers curl, relaxing around the roundness of his brother’s head.
Thor can feel the other man entering his mind. Even with permission given, it’s still an invasion of sorts. He relaxes as much as he can, trying to let go of any lingering anger or resentment. He descends into the moist depths of his own subconscious. He grabs hold of that which is sweetest and most tender, and holds it up as an offering. Then he waits for Loki to meet him there.
His mind is immediately flooded with images. There’s a vast, green field, and a steep cliff, overlooking a deep pool. The colors are so rich and inviting. There are two boys -one blonde and one dark- holding hands and running. They count together, a practiced ritual. They scream and laugh as they leap to the water below. After they land, they race to the surface, gasping for air. They make their way to the shore, scrambling onto the rocks. Their clothes are sticking to their tiny bodies. They slog over to the grass and fling themselves onto it, lying on their backs. They gaze up into the clouds. It’s all so bright, so real, and so right now-
“Okay,” Loki says. He blinks several times, before slowly passing the scepter to his brother. “Okay.”
IDK, bro, at this point it would just be like pausing Groundhog Day halfway through to be really upset about Phil and the groundhog dying, and writing fix-it fic for that. Is there gonna be stuff I want to fix? Probably, because it’s Marvel and they tend to find ways to disappoint me, but at this point I’ve only seen the first half of a five-hour movie about a macguffin that allows its wielder to wind back time and rearrange the fabric of reality. Ask me for a reaction when the movie’s actually over.
THIS
The Loki fandom is having some trouble, though, because we don’t know if that one will be reversed. The dust people are fine, obviously. We’re just not confident that Marvel cares enough about our fave to give him meaningful screentime or a death that isn’t fucking stupid.
As promised, I’m going to start talking about some of the philosophical issues raised in Avengers: Infinity War, and this first one gives me an opportunity to discuss something I’ve meant to for a while: why I find Ultron so interesting. Spoilers and long discussion are under the cut.
We find out in IW that Thanos wants to kill half of the living things in the universe because of his views about overpopulation and scarcity, which align with those of Thomas Malthus: that populations will always tend to expand beyond the means of society to provide for them, resulting in poverty, disease, and conflict. Malthus, of course, never proposed mass murder as a way to prevent these terrible outcomes, though he did think that famine and war, as the natural consequences of overpopulation, were God’s and/or nature’s way of correcting the problem – and of (futilely) cautioning humanity against reproducing beyond its means. We also find out that Thanos arrived at these views based on harsh experience: his home planet, Titan, experienced ecological catastrophe as a result of overpopulation. Thanos warned his people as the catastrophe approached and proposed his solution – random culling of the population – but he was, of course, dismissed as a madman. He now lives (sometimes) on the lifeless, desert-like ruins of Titan, applies his solution to planets that he thinks are reproducing beyond their means – including Gamora’s home planet – and seeks the Infinity Stones so that he can apply it to the universe as a whole.
It seems obvious to me – and should be obvious to him – that this is only a temporary solution. He claims that the standard of living on Gamora’s home planet improved dramatically after he halved its population; but if that’s the case, then unless Thanos was also distributing free birth control and family planning education, people would just take advantage of their new prosperity to have more children. Maybe with all the Infinity Stones in the Gauntlet, he envisioned himself or one of his disciples doing The Snap every few centuries?
I’ve seen some commentary suggesting that Thanos’s outlook is only comprehensible or even remotely sympathetic from a very pro-capitalist standpoint which ignores the fact that capitalism generates artificial scarcity. There’s certainly something to that criticism; “Malthusian” views are usually dismissed in the same breath as “social Darwinism” as artifacts of 19th-century and/or mid-20th-century elitist, racist, greed-driven ideology. I think there’s a reason Titan’s demise was depicted as an ecological catastrophe, considering the looming threat of climate change. Burning fossil fuels was a major part of how humanity harnessed the energy resources to be able to overcome natural scarcity, and now it’s biting us in the ass. That said, the technological advances that were enabled by the burning of fossil fuels for energy would probably enable us to stop burning fossil fuels if not for vested financial interests. And since population growth declines dramatically as societies become better educated and have more gender equality, it seems like it should be possible to stabilize a planet’s population so that it never exceeds the ecosystem’s ability to sustain it without resorting to mass murder. So yes, Thanos’s perspective and imagination seem extremely limited, and he’s drawing the wrong lesson from what happened to Titan. I guess he’s just really pessimistic about any society’s ability to overcome greed and education inequality…?
Thanos’s philosophical reasons for supporting mass murder of course call to mind another villain with philosophical reasons for mass murder (indeed, specicide, if that’s a word): Ultron. Predictably, I think Ultron makes much better points than Thanos does because they’re founded on observations about human nature rather than speculation about economic necessity. From looking at all of recorded human history, Ultron concludes that humanity has no moral right to exist because human beings have always, everywhere, been horrible to each other. If we solved all the scarcity problems that motivate Thanos, that would probably cut down on violence, but it would not eliminate it. I’m not at all sure that it’s possible to civilize human beings to the point that violence, small-scale or large-scale, never happens. That’s why Ultron says that humanity “needs to evolve”: human nature would have to change fundamentally in order to prevent the horrors that have littered human history.
Of course there’s a moral question here: is it morally right to eliminate a kind of being whose existence is, on the whole, an evil, or does it incur rights simply in virtue of existing? Pretty clearly, Ultron (like Thanos) is making a utilitarian calculation: cause a moderate amount of suffering in the short term in order to prevent a greater amount of suffering over the long term. But is thatan acceptable trade-off, when those who enjoy the benefits are not the same as those who bear the costs? This issue – consequentialist vs. deontological (i.e., rights-based, rule-based) ethics – is the same one that’s explored in Watchmen, where Adrian Veidt/Ozymandias represents consequentialism and Rorschach (Mr. Black and White) represents deontology.In the MCU, Tony seems to represent the consequentialist perspective while Steve represents the deontologist; this is especially clear in IW with all that “we don’t trade lives” stuff (which I’ll have to discuss in more detail later). I myself don’t come down on either side all the time; I think it depends on the scale of decision-making. When you’re in a position of authority over large numbers of people, you’re going to have to make some consequentialist calculations; but in small-scale interpersonal interactions, you should operate like a deontologist. Tony thinks on the large scale and in the long term; Steve treats everything like an interpersonal interaction. But even on the large scale, there are times when consequentialist calculations lead to (what seem to us like) horrific conclusions. Tony has a human moral compass that allows him to avoid those; Ultron represents Tony’s consequentialist instincts writ large, with no human emotions to keep them in check. But there’s another question here: are our emotions a moral correcting mechanism, or do they impair our judgment? Would machines actually be better moral reasoners than human beings?
Ultron’s conclusion also raises a couple of interesting issues from a specifically Nietzschean perspective: one (meta)ethical and one metaphysical. (I’m not sure whether it’s a coincidence that Ultron quotes Nietzsche: “Like the man said, ‘Whatever doesn’t kill me only makes me stronger.’”) The (meta)ethical issue (I’m calling it that because it doesn’t fit cleanly into either normative ethics or metaethics as practiced in contemporary philosophy, which is clearly a limitation of contemporary philosophy) is the one that motivates Nietzsche’s main philosophical project: If the (Christian-descended) morality of compassion and altruism – a morality that says that suffering and domination are the most terrible things, constituting an argument against the existence of anything that perpetuates them – leads us to the conclusion that humanity, or life in general, ought not to exist, then why should we buy into the morality of compassion? One man’s modus ponens is another man’s modus tollens – which, in English, translates to: one person who sees that a set of premises leads to a conclusion will just accept the conclusion; but another, finding the conclusion unacceptable, will instead reject one of the premises. Ultron, it seems, does not know how to reject the premise of the morality of compassion – and that is almost certainly because it’s part of what Tony and Bruce programmed into him. His purpose was to protect human beings from suffering and domination by preventing alien invasion; the assumption that violence, war, and conquest are bad is fundamental to his very existence. Put in the facts of human history – which make the prospects for an end to these things seem very dim – and consequentialist reasoning rules, and you get the conclusion he in fact comes to.
Vision seems to express a quasi-Nietzschean attitude in his conversation with Ultron toward the end: “Humans are odd. They think order and chaos are somehow opposites, and try to control what won’t be. But there is grace in their failings. … A thing isn’t beautiful because it lasts.” It’s interesting to me that Vision uses aesthetic terms in defense of humanity rather than moral ones. That’s another theme you find throughout Nietzsche’s writings. In The Birth of Tragedy (1872) he claims (under the influence of Wagner), “it is only as an aesthetic phenomenon that existence and the world are eternally justified”; by The Gay Science (1882), he has retreated to “As an aesthetic phenomenon existence is still bearable for us.” The world is not and cannot be good by the standards of the morality of compassion; suffering and exploitation are woven into its very fabric. The same is very likely true of humanity (and Nietzsche also thinks we wouldn’t like the result if humanity ever became entirely “good” in that sense…). If we judge them only by the standards of morality, they will always fall short; we must conclude that they are, on the whole, bad things, things that should not be. But humanity and existence can still be aesthetically interesting, even beautiful,in their mix of good and evil, smart and stupid, order and chaos.
The metaphysical question is: in what sense does the replacement of carbon-based human animals by robots count as an “evolution” of humanity rather than simply its extinction and the ascendance of something completely different? The movie encourages us to think about inheritance and legacy in nonstandard ways, most obviously by framing Ultron as Tony’s “child”: Ultron has learned some things from Tony and inherited some things from him via programming – and we are now accustomed to thinking of genetics as a kind of natural “programming.” Tony even calls Ultron “Junior” and says “You’re going to break your old man’s heart.” By extension, then, AI is the “child” of humanity in general, its “brainchild” – an expression that reflects how common procreation and childbirth metaphors are in talk of intellectual creativity (that’s all over the place in Nietzsche’s writing, btw). But the extreme difference between biological humanity and its AI “descendants” highlights a distinctively Nietzschean theme: the idea that success, for a species, is not a matter of its persistence in the same form, but of its “self-overcoming” (that’s an ideal that comes up a lot, for individuals as well as cultures and species). Often this means that the majority will have to perish, while only an unusual few survive: the mutants, the evolutionary vanguard (LOL, there’s another Marvel franchise…), the ones who are better adapted to changing conditions rather than the old environment that the species had previously been adapted for. The successor species might look very different from its progenitor species, even unrecognizable, but the former is still the legacy of the latter. What’s important is the survival of a lineage rather than the persistence of a type.
Loki Iceborn of the House Laufeyson, First of his Name, The Undying, King of Jötunheim and the Frost Giants, King Consort of Asgard, Protector of the Realm, God of Mischief and Mother of Dragons
1. Tom Hiddleston signed a six film deal, so we can expect him to be in Avengers 4.
2. Loki is known as a ‘Silvertongue’, so his choice of words is always extremely important. So, when he says “undying fidelity”. I think this is an allusion to the fact that he is not dead.
3. Further on from the ‘Silvertongue’ point, Loki says “I promise you, brother, the sun will shine on us again”. This seems too far out of place to be a coincidence. I think Loki is trying to subtly tell Thor that he has a trick up his sleeve that may end up saving them.
4. Loki has already feigned death so many times, is it really so far fetched to think he has done it again?
5. He disappeared from the scene for several minutes and we have no idea what he was doing during that time. He then reappears super cocky and arrogant which is a direct contrast to how terrified he’d been a few minutes prior. This seems to suggest that perhaps he is using an illusion of some sort.
6. He emphasizes the fact that he is a “God of Mischief”, thus perhaps hinting to Thor that he is about to perform a trick, or to allude to the audience that all is not as it seems.
7. Loki did not change into his Jotun form after he died. This seems odd because his Aesir form is an illusion, so it should have disappeared when he died. Furthermore, there are a couple of mentions of Loki being “the rightful King of Jotunheim” and “not Asgardian”, which may be an attempt to draw the audience’s attention to this fact.
8. It was very uncharacteristic of Loki to act so impulsive by stabbing Thanos with a small dagger. It seems to me that the attack was more of a distraction than a real attack. The Loki we know would have attempted to use some sort of illusion or trick in order to attack Thanos and mean it.
9. Tom Hiddleston mentions in a recent interview that “Chaos isn’t something that’s threatening to Loki” and that “Everything is fine”. This seems to suggest that Loki is alright, and hasn’t actually died.
10. Loki’s choice of last words, “You will never be a god”, introduces the idea that maybe Loki has survived due to the fact that he’s a God, and cannot be killed so easily.
11. If the Russo brothers wanted to make Loki’s death truly believable, they would have had Loki using his illusions, and Thanos seeing straight through them and then killing him. The fact that none of Loki’s powers were used at all, makes it seem that he has perhaps feigned death.
12. Finally, I refuse to believe that Thor’s last words to Loki are “You really are the worst brother”, it just seems so wrong to me after all they’ve been through.
I think he’s really literally dead this time, but knows he’ll be brought back some way or another. Like Strange, he knows the only way they can win is if they make sacrifices now. But he promises Thor they will be together again, somehow, and that’s too strong a statement to be arbitrary.
I’d definitely like to believe in all of these reasons, but my pessimistic side suspects that we, as Loki’s fans, are grasping at straws. Many of these points, especially in combination, seem compelling, but I’ve got some reasons not to get too optimistic…
1. The number of films named in an actor’s contract is binding on the actor, but not the studio. He can’t say no if they want him in 6 films, but they don’t have to use all 6.
2, 3, 8, and 11 all rest on the presupposition that the writers, directors, producers, etc. care about making Loki’s characterization consistent and plausible. We saw what happened with Thor: Ragnarok, which seems to indicate that the higher-ups at Marvel do not care about that, or about making Loki appear competent. It’s fairly clear to me that the screenwriters, Markus & McFeely, and the Russos, who all got their start at Marvel working on the Captain America movies, care far more about Cap and his friends than about anyone else, and beyond that care more about the Avengers than about formerly villainous side characters like Loki. Markus & McFeely wrote the screenplay for Thor: The Dark World; it was faring poorly with test audiences, so Marvel brought in Joss Whedon as a script doctor. Whedon’s diagnosis was, in effect, “This movie has a fever, and the only prescription is more Loki.” He wrote at least the shapeshifting scene and the bro-boat scene; Loki’s trial at the beginning was also a late addition based on a tie-in comic. The point I’m trying to make is that Markus & McFeely did not consider Loki all that important and gave him a much smaller role in the movie than he eventually ended up playing, so I don’t expect them to place that much importance on Loki’s character coherence or narrative arc now, either.
4. This point can cut both ways. A lot of people have been pointing to the “no resurrections” line and noting that Loki dying but not really is getting to be an old trick.
7. There’s a fair amount of disagreement among fans about whether Loki’s Aesir form is an illusion/glamour or whether he’s actually a shapeshifter who can physically inhabit either form. For a variety of reasons (which I won’t list here), I favor the latter theory. I also don’t think that the darkening of his face during his “death” scene in TDW had anything to do with his Jotun nature; I think it probably had something to do with Kurse’s blood being on the blade he was stabbed with.
9. Tom was probably bullshitting because he was asked to “reassure” his fans. I wouldn’t take it all that seriously. And, you know, Loki lies, even if Tom usually doesn’t.
12. I don’t think Markus & McFeely and the Russos care about Thor and Loki’s relationship any more than they do about Loki as a character… and since Thor was saying crap like that all throughout Ragnarok, there’s something kind of fitting about it.
All that said, I really, really want to believe that you’re right.
Chapters: 1/1 Fandom: The Avengers (Marvel Movies), Marvel Cinematic Universe, Thor (Movies) Rating: Teen And Up Audiences Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply Relationships: Loki/Thor (Marvel) Characters: Thor (Marvel), Loki (Marvel), Tony Stark, Steve Rogers, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanov (Marvel), Bruce Banner, Nick Fury Additional Tags: Post-Avengers: Infinity War Part 1 (Movie), Post-Avengers (2012), Time Travel Fix-It, Implied/Referenced Character Death, Sibling Incest, First Kiss Summary:
SPOILERS FOR INFINITY WAR!
There is only one way to reverse the devastation Thanos wrought: the Avengers must return to the aftermath of the Battle of New York when they had two Infinity Stones in their possession, and with the knowledge of the whereabouts of others. Thor cannot help but focus on what he will regain.
@tegary, this one’s for you. You said something yesterday that inspired this short, self-indulgent fic. I hope knowing all the spoilers made watching the movie easier for you, my dear, but if not, have a bite-sized fix-it.
I’m really hoping there’s a good payoff for all of this pain. Even Game of Thrones eventually gives the audience a sense of justice for every atrocity committed.
I heard a rumor that A4 is going to be sort of a play on Return of the King, with Captain America / Iron Man playing Frodo and Sam and Thor playing Aragorn. And if that’s the case…..imagine the undead forces of Asgard smacking Thanos down into Hel. That would be amazing.
And then Loki comes back and he and Thor get married like at the end of ROTK the end
FYI: Loki and Frigga are both confirmed for a4. Which is……INTERESTING.
WAIT, WHAT??? Where did you read that? Please send link(s)!