Tag: avengers 4 speculation

The Grand Infinity War Theory

loki-friggason:

rocket-roquill-raccoon:

My current theory for Avengers 4 and Dr. Strange’s plan has come down to the following points you need to pay attention to.

1. Gamora’s soul is bound to the soul stone.
She was bound because she was sacrificed in exchange for the stone.

2. After The Snap, Thanos found himself at a quiet, orange colored, watery place, where he briefly speaks to Gamora as a child. This place was inside the soul stone, and it was Gamora’s soul. Note that the color fits.

3. Everyone who became dust and Gamora’s soul can be saved. Other manual deaths may be permanent.

4. Dr. Strange has seen the one possible future where the heroes succeed. Strange is planning to set up everything so that this timeline occurs.

5. Likely on Titan, Dr. Strange travels into the past via the Time Gem and recruits Heimdall, The Hulk and possibly Loki.

6a. The Hulk is crucial for the victory timeline, and he must do something at the right moment. For this reason, Heimdall sacrificed himself to send Hulk back to Earth, and Hulk refuses to show himself until the time is right. If Loki was recruited as well, his job was to ensure Thor’s survival, because he is crucial for the victory timeline.

6b. Note that Dr. Strange had Heimdall send Hulk to himself on Earth, so Strange knew beforehand that someone had sent Hulk, and he may have realized later that it was himself. This is how he knew what to do.

7. Dr. Strange sacrifices the Time Gem at to correct moment to save Tony, because Tony is required for the victory timeline, saying to Tony: “It was the only way.”

8. Furthering point 7, all the major technicians (Rocket, Tony, Bruce, Shuri) are still around. They may be required to combine their brilliance in order to beat Thanos.

9. For each infinity stone, a character sacrificed themselves or someone they loved, at least attempting to do so. These sacrifices usually happened in the presence of a particular stone. It may be that these sacrifices make different characters the real masters of the stones.

Power Gem: Groot sacrifices himself out of love (Guardians vol. 1)
Space Gem: Loki for Thor
Reality Gem: Quill -> Gamora (attempted in presence of the gem)
Soul Gem: Gamora -> herself (for Nebula, but not in presence of the gem)
Mind Gem: Wanda -> Vision
Time Gem: Strange -> unclear at this point (maybe himself & his duty)

Even with Dr. Strange’s sacrifice being unclear and Gamora not being in the presence of the soul gem, all of this is a pattern, and pattern implies purpose. This leads me to consider that these characters, when working together, have full control over all the stones, and the stones may refuse Thanos even if he wields them.

This theory is great because it explains why Heimdall sent Hulk to Earth instead of Thor, which didn’t make any sense to me. And also gives significance to Loki’s line “The sun will shine on us again.” Which is strange because how can Loki be so optimistic? Well, maybe because he is following Strange’s plan.

It would be great if the movie actually made this much sense… but often I think the fans put in more thought than the screenwriters do.

juliabohemian:

Another Post Infinity War Drabble

Under the cut, because spoilers

And just like that they are back atop Stark Tower again. They are face to face, grappling and sparring like animals, as the world comes undone around them.

“Brother, help me put an end to this,” Thor insists. It’s different this time. He’s eager, persistent, confident. “We can do it together.”

He can see from Loki’s face that he knows something is amiss. Something has changed. They should not be here now, like this. These events have already taken place, as have so many other things, some of them dark and terrible. Thor notices that it takes some getting used to, this shifting back and forth through time. He finds it not at all unlike a waking dream. Somehow he expected that it would come more easily to Loki.

“You don’t know,” Loki rambles. He grips the scepter with both hands, clutching it against his chest. “You don’t know…you don’t know what he’s capable of. This will end his way, one way or another…Thanos will have his way…” He’s breathing rapidly and so his words come out in harsh, laborious pants. His eyes are wide and fearful, darting back and forth.

“Loki, please…” Thor begins. “You must listen to me…”

“I can’t…I can’t…this is madness…it’s madness…”

Thor reaches for the other man. But Loki seems so fragile right now, that he’s not sure if it’s safe to even touch him.

“You can trust me…”

“No…no…it’s madness…”

Loki lets go of the scepter with his right hand. His fingers creep towards his own throat, as if to pry off some invisible force.

“Brother, help me. I’m choking…I’m choking…”

Thor’s soul aches when reminded of Loki’s brutal end. Even with all of the shifting back and forth, it still feels so fresh in his mind. It pains him to know that Loki might be reliving it somehow. He longs to soothe his brother’s fears, but he knows they don’t have the time.

“Loki you have to calm down!” Thor yells. He must roar to be heard over the din and confusion.

Loki’s eyes are immediately shut tight. He raises the scepter in front of his face in a defensive gesture. Thor’s heart sinks when he realizes that his brother is anticipating violence.

Softly and gently he reaches for Loki’s free hand, and presses the palm of it firmly against his own forehead.

Thor has never given up any degree of control to Loki before, not really. He’s learned that it’s easier to allow Loki to spy and stalk him from a safe distance, than to simply engage in full disclosure. Certain barriers have always been necessary between them, for both their sake. But today that will not do. Thor knows that today, Loki needs more.

“I invite you to look into my mind, Brother. See that you can trust me. See that I feel nothing but love for you.”

Loki opens his eyes. His expression is still one of sheer panic. Thor knows that he doesn’t trust people easily, and right now he cannot even trust reality.

“No, I…”

“Loki, please…”

Loki swallows several times, as though he is attempting to literally consume his distress. Finally, he lets his eyes fall closed again. His fingers curl, relaxing around the roundness of his brother’s head.

Thor can feel the other man entering his mind. Even with permission given, it’s still an invasion of sorts. He relaxes as much as he can, trying to let go of any lingering anger or resentment. He descends into the moist depths of his own subconscious. He grabs hold of that which is sweetest and most tender, and holds it up as an offering. Then he waits for Loki to meet him there.

His mind is immediately flooded with images. There’s a vast, green field, and a steep cliff, overlooking a deep pool. The colors are so rich and inviting. There are two boys -one blonde and one dark- holding hands and running. They count together, a practiced ritual. They scream and laugh as they leap to the water below. After they land, they race to the surface, gasping for air. They make their way to the shore, scrambling onto the rocks. Their clothes are sticking to their tiny bodies. They slog over to the grass and fling themselves onto it, lying on their backs. They gaze up into the clouds. It’s all so bright, so real, and so right now-

“Okay,” Loki says. He blinks several times, before slowly passing the scepter to his brother. “Okay.”

Reasons why Loki is still alive:

taranoire:

lesbiansassemble:

1. Tom Hiddleston signed a six film deal, so we can expect him to be in Avengers 4.

2. Loki is known as a ‘Silvertongue’, so his choice of words is always extremely important. So, when he says “undying fidelity”. I think this is an allusion to the fact that he is not dead.

3. Further on from the ‘Silvertongue’ point, Loki says “I promise you, brother, the sun will shine on us again”. This seems too far out of place to be a coincidence. I think Loki is trying to subtly tell Thor that he has a trick up his sleeve that may end up saving them.

4. Loki has already feigned death so many times, is it really so far fetched to think he has done it again?

5. He disappeared from the scene for several minutes and we have no idea what he was doing during that time. He then reappears super cocky and arrogant which is a direct contrast to how terrified he’d been a few minutes prior. This seems to suggest that perhaps he is using an illusion of some sort.

6. He emphasizes the fact that he is a “God of Mischief”, thus perhaps hinting to Thor that he is about to perform a trick, or to allude to the audience that all is not as it seems.

7. Loki did not change into his Jotun form after he died. This seems odd because his Aesir form is an illusion, so it should have disappeared when he died. Furthermore, there are a couple of mentions of Loki being “the rightful King of Jotunheim” and “not Asgardian”, which may be an attempt to draw the audience’s attention to this fact.

8. It was very uncharacteristic of Loki to act so impulsive by stabbing Thanos with a small dagger. It seems to me that the attack was more of a distraction than a real attack. The Loki we know would have attempted to use some sort of illusion or trick in order to attack Thanos and mean it.

9. Tom Hiddleston mentions in a recent interview that “Chaos isn’t something that’s threatening to Loki” and that “Everything is fine”. This seems to suggest that Loki is alright, and hasn’t actually died.

10. Loki’s choice of last words, “You will never be a god”, introduces the idea that maybe Loki has survived due to the fact that he’s a God, and cannot be killed so easily.

11. If the Russo brothers wanted to make Loki’s death truly believable, they would have had Loki using his illusions, and Thanos seeing straight through them and then killing him. The fact that none of Loki’s powers were used at all, makes it seem that he has perhaps feigned death.

12. Finally, I refuse to believe that Thor’s last words to Loki are “You really are the worst brother”, it just seems so wrong to me after all they’ve been through.

I think he’s really literally dead this time, but knows he’ll be brought back some way or another.
Like Strange, he knows the only way they can win is if they make sacrifices now. But he promises Thor they will be together again, somehow, and that’s too strong a statement to be arbitrary.

I’d definitely like to believe in all of these reasons, but my pessimistic side suspects that we, as Loki’s fans, are grasping at straws. Many of these points, especially in combination, seem compelling, but I’ve got some reasons not to get too optimistic…

1. The number of films named in an actor’s contract is binding on the actor, but not the studio. He can’t say no if they want him in 6 films, but they don’t have to use all 6.

2, 3, 8, and 11 all rest on the presupposition that the writers, directors, producers, etc. care about making Loki’s characterization consistent and plausible. We saw what happened with Thor: Ragnarok, which seems to indicate that the higher-ups at Marvel do not care about that, or about making Loki appear competent. It’s fairly clear to me that the screenwriters, Markus & McFeely, and the Russos, who all got their start at Marvel working on the Captain America movies, care far more about Cap and his friends than about anyone else, and beyond that care more about the Avengers than about formerly villainous side characters like Loki. Markus & McFeely wrote the screenplay for Thor: The Dark World; it was faring poorly with test audiences, so Marvel brought in Joss Whedon as a script doctor. Whedon’s diagnosis was, in effect, “This movie has a fever, and the only prescription is more Loki.” He wrote at least the shapeshifting scene and the bro-boat scene; Loki’s trial at the beginning was also a late addition based on a tie-in comic. The point I’m trying to make is that Markus & McFeely did not consider Loki all that important and gave him a much smaller role in the movie than he eventually ended up playing, so I don’t expect them to place that much importance on Loki’s character coherence or narrative arc now, either.

4. This point can cut both ways. A lot of people have been pointing to the “no resurrections” line and noting that Loki dying but not really is getting to be an old trick.

7. There’s a fair amount of disagreement among fans about whether Loki’s Aesir form is an illusion/glamour or whether he’s actually a shapeshifter who can physically inhabit either form. For a variety of reasons (which I won’t list here), I favor the latter theory. I also don’t think that the darkening of his face during his “death” scene in TDW had anything to do with his Jotun nature; I think it probably had something to do with Kurse’s blood being on the blade he was stabbed with.

9. Tom was probably bullshitting because he was asked to “reassure” his fans. I wouldn’t take it all that seriously. And, you know, Loki lies, even if Tom usually doesn’t.

12. I don’t think Markus & McFeely and the Russos care about Thor and Loki’s relationship any more than they do about Loki as a character… and since Thor was saying crap like that all throughout Ragnarok, there’s something kind of fitting about it.

All that said, I really, really want to believe that you’re right.

Oh I just remembered two other things I noticed about That Scene. First of all, that Loki disappeared during the Thanos/Hulk fight. Secondly, he surely wouldn’t be stupid enough to just try and stab Thanos after Thanos just destroyed the Hulk and has two infinity stones???? So either this is a case of spectacularly unbelievably bad writing or there was another endgame there. With Marvel it could go either way.

taranoire:

taranoire:

I’m really hoping there’s a good payoff for all of this pain. Even Game of Thrones eventually gives the audience a sense of justice for every atrocity committed.
I heard a rumor that A4 is going to be sort of a play on Return of the King, with Captain America / Iron Man playing Frodo and Sam and Thor playing Aragorn. And if that’s the case…..imagine the undead forces of Asgard smacking Thanos down into Hel. That would be amazing.
And then Loki comes back and he and Thor get married like at the end of ROTK the end

FYI: Loki and Frigga are both confirmed for a4. Which is……INTERESTING.

WAIT, WHAT??? Where did you read that? Please send link(s)!

Initial thoughts about “Avengers: Infinity War”

Spoilers under the cut, obviously. Click only if you’ve seen it or don’t care.

OK, first: I am FUCKING PISSED that Loki died before the fucking title card. And you know what? We called it months ago when Feige or someone said that we’d see in the first 5 minutes what a formidable enemy Thanos was. But then they FUCKING TRICKED US by having Hiddleston do all those press junkets in Singapore and Shanghai and what have you, which made me think he must have a significant role in the movie. And I bet that was deliberate. They wanted to lull us into a false sense of security so we’d be shocked and horrified when… what we’d initially predicted came to pass. We shouldn’t have second-guessed ourselves. My only consolation* is that, based on the photos that leaked from filming Avengers 4, Loki will be in the movie for at least a little while. What’s not clear is whether it’s just a flashback to the end of Avengers 1 or if the time-travel fix (which I’m assuming will happen) will take us as far back as 2012. (Which would have extremely interesting consequences for the movies that took place in the interim…)

Speaking of which… we were all right about the ending, too. Let’s hear it for Mark Ruffalo’s inability to keep his mouth shut. What I’m confused about is that Doctor Strange died without the Time Stone; I thought he was going to be the only survivor and use it at the end. So now I’m not sure how the time travel wizardry is going to happen. I’m also not completely clear on whether Thanos is dead or alive at the end. That scene of him smiling at the end seems to have been a dream or something, since the beautiful green Titan of his youth is no more… unless he was using the Reality Stone to make it nice for himself again. Though it’s not at all clear how the Reality Stone works…

Anyway, Thanos seems to have gone back to Titan with the Gauntlet, possibly to die. Tony is still alive on Titan… but would he be able to use the Time Stone? What happened to the casing that Doctor Strange had, which seemed to play some role in allowing him to control it? Would it have dissolved along with him? (Speaking of which, why did everybody’s clothing dissolve with them? If Thanos was destroying half of all life, why would non-living matter that happened to be adjacent go with it? Logic is not these movies’ strong suit…) Another possibility has to do with the little pager Fury used at the end of the tag scene. Someone in the theater recognized Captain Marvel’s insignia, so now I’ve been reading up on how she might help save the day. And apparently there’s some stuff involving the “quantum realm” that might enable Ant-Man, the Wasp, and/or Captain Marvel to do time travel even without the Time Stone. (Or bring people back from the dead? I think the time travel explanation fits better with other evidence.)

So, if we are going to fix it with time travel (somehow or other)… I kind of can’t help wondering why we went through all that violent, depressing bullshit in Infinity War. It feels like none of it matters because none of it is permanent. Will anyone remember what they went through? If it’s Ant-Man, the Wasp, Captain Marvel, and maybe Hawkeye doing the time travel rescue, it seems likely that the heroes of IW won’t remember anything that happened. It really feels like they put our emotions through the wringer (Peter in his father’s… er, Tony’s arms, saying he doesn’t want to die? Wanda destroying the Mind Stone with tears in her eyes? Bucky saying “Steve?” and then crumbling to dust? Okoye watching her king disintegrate even as he reaches to pull her up?) for no reason. Was this just a 2.5-hour-long demonstration of how formidable Thanos is? Was it making some point about the sacrifice required to defeat such a powerful enemy? Or a “sometimes the good guys lose” point? (Thanks, we know; we live in the real world.) Nothing they might have wanted to accomplish with this death-tragedy seems worth all the agony. They might prove me wrong; the precise way they fix it with time travel or quantum whatever in Avengers 4 might show how everything that happened in Infinity War was necessary, either for the emotional payoff or for the victory itself. But since it’s Markus & McFeely writing it (the brain trust that brought us all of the Captain America movies, none of which impressed me that much, and Thor: The Dark World, which was kind of a boring mess except for the scenes that Joss Whedon wrote), I seriously doubt it. And I’m also bracing myself for some truly egregious time-travel illogic… possibly even worse than that seen in Doctor Strange.

Ugh, I have more to say about the philosophical issues raised in the movie, but it’s almost 1 AM and I should really go to bed. I have a bunch of free time tomorrow, so expect discussion of at least some of the following issues:

  1. Thanos’s Malthusian worldview and motivations, and how it compares with Ultron’s (which I’ve been meaning to discuss on here but have never gotten around to… no time like the morrow)
  2. whether Thanos can be said to love Gamora
  3. that “we don’t trade lives” chestnut (another theme that’s arisen before)

* My other “only” consolation is that, because they didn’t care enough about Loki to tell us anything about what happened between him and Thanos, my fic about that still hasn’t been made obsolete, or anyway canon-non-compliant. So I have at least another year to finish it, assuming the job market depression ever lifts enough for my creativity to return.