foundlingmother replied to your post: sorry, wdym by their breakup in Ragnarok?

Yes, more power to them. I just wish they wouldn’t imply we’re crazy and stupid (and flat out say we’re wrong) for not seeing it as positive… Like, I’m sorry I don’t see Thor leaving Loki with a device meant to keep slaves in line active on him as this sweet moment of brotherly acceptance. (Sorry, lots of posts getting on my nerves lately. Couldn’t help but vent.)

OK guess i lied about not going into any more detail in a public post.

See, a lot of the complaints I have seen about it, and a lot of the derisive responses to those complaints, have been about whether the device itself was cruel. But to me, that’s… missing the point a bit, at least with the way I see it, because I am completely not complaining about the physical pain Thor inflicted on Loki. They can bash the shit out of each other, that’s fine; I’m sure if you tallied up who had hurt who when, they’d both have a long list. I do think it was… reckless, to say the least… for Thor to leave him there helpless without any certainty of who would find him, but I would be able to overlook that as a lapse in judgment under other circumstances.

What bothers me is why. Telling someone who has known trauma around identity and belonging “who you are is as a person is inadequate and I will disown you unless you change to suit my standards” is…

I mean, I know some folks reading this are not gonna hear what I’m saying but are going to hear what they think I’m saying. So let me clarify. I am not saying how horrible Thor is for saying it. I don’t care whether it’s right or wrong, an acceptable or unacceptable action. That is entirely irrelevant. It could be 100% justified… but it would not have achieved the end that the movie claims. What I’m saying is that regardless of whether Loki got out and followed him back to Asgard, and regardless of whether they hugged and made nice with each other, that conversation did the opposite of what needed to happen to heal their relationship, and it may have effectively destroyed any chance of future healing between them.

The fracture in their relationship was around trust—not just Thor’s trust in Loki but also Loki’s trust in Thor. That was something that TDW got very right, for all its other flaws, because it showed that Loki started to come back from the edge when Thor chose to extend trust to him, treated him like his brother, took him seriously, and generally allowed Loki to believe that their relationship was not permanently stained. What Loki needed was to be able to trust in Thor’s love for him: that it wasn’t just circumstantial. That he, as a person, mattered to Thor, and that Thor would be able to re-accept him after his transgressions and would continue to value him. And Thor showing him so through his actions was working to fix their relationship and give them the space to talk things through

with some kind of honesty

and work their shit out. It was working, to the extent that Loki fully intended to die to save Thor. (The fact that Loki took advantage of circumstances when he woke up alive doesn’t change that and is, to my thinking, wholly in line with his character and his need to not let his feelings be used against him. Just died for your brother in a blatant display of love and loyalty? whoop better go and be a dick to fuck that right up!).

But the above scene from Ragnarok, Thor’s ultimatum, would utterly shatter Loki’s trust in all of those things. And, importantly, it would do absolutely nothing to heal Thor’s trust in his brother, either, because… I mean, it was compliance under threat of abandonment. That really doesn’t prove anything about someone’s trustworthiness or whether they have “changed.” All it proves is that you know where their buttons are located.

And that is exactly where the movie leaves it, with trust thoroughly shattered on both sides. Which is the end of any relationship if serious action isn’t taken to repair that trust. But no such action is shown or even suggested. Loki coming to save the day wouldn’t do it; he’d rushed to Thor’s rescue as recently as the previous movie, so that’s hardly new. Them fighting side by side wouldn’t do it; they’d done that thousands of times before. Hugs likewise. And if the issues were deep and serious enough to cause the breaking of a centuries-long brotherly bond, how could they possibly be resolved off-screen, without so much as a hint of how it happened? They couldn’t. It just doesn’t work, narratively speaking.

So to me, that movie ends with their relationship completely broken. They are inhabiting the same space and they are ostensibly on peaceful terms, but any basis for trust has been destroyed. By any meaningful definition, their relationship is deader than a doornail.

And to me it is fitting, under those circumstances, that Loki would go and get himself killed kinda-sorta on purpose at the first opportunity as well. I mean, last time he was in a similar situation of having been rejected by those he cared about, he threw himself into an abyss. And this time he even got to continue to try to prove himself to Thor while doing it, just like one might feel compelled to do after such an ultimatum.

So yeah that’s why I call it a breakup. Because I don’t see any other way I can interpret it.

Thank you so much for saying this publicly. It was talking to you that led me to realize that Ragnarok destroyed the main characters, especially Thor, so thoroughly that I couldn’t make excuses for it, couldn’t keep liking it for bringing Thor and Loki back together even if I was uncomfortable with the way it belittled Loki’s grievances and turned Thor more self-absorbed than he had been at the beginning of Thor 1. Thank you for adding this to the discussion and redirecting it to something that really is more important than the points it has been getting unproductively stuck on. I’ll admit to getting stuck on the obedience disk, too, because one of the things that made me most deeply uncomfortable, even before you convinced me that Thor* was never giving Loki a genuine choice, was how smug, how self-satisfied and even gleeful Thor looked while seeing Loki in pain. But you’re right that that by itself could be explained as the anger of the moment (and I did try to explain it that way in some post-Ragnarok Thorki fanfiction, while also having Loki try to re-assert some independence and Thor actually listen to Loki’s side of things… as if that wouldn’t be too little, too late).

I think this point is especially important and unusual in the discourse:

I am not saying how horrible Thor is for saying it. I don’t care whether it’s right or wrong, an acceptable or unacceptable action. That is entirely irrelevant. It could be 100% justified… but it would not have achieved the end that the movie claims. What I’m saying is that regardless of whether Loki got out and followed him back to Asgard, and regardless of whether they hugged and made nice with each other, that conversation did the opposite of what needed to happen to heal their relationship, and it may have effectively destroyed any chance of future healing between them.

It seems like a lot of the disagreement between the Loki fans (myself included) and the Thor* stans has been about whether Thor* was justified in doing what he did. The Thor* stans insist that Loki was a terrible brother, constantly stabbing and betraying Thor, so he deserved to be punished and needed to be told that Thor* wasn’t going to put up with his shit anymore; and the Loki fans have probably spent too much time arguing that before Thor 1 Loki hadn’t given Thor any reason to mistrust him, and since then he’s had reasons for all of his betrayals. I think some of us have also added that punishment and ultimatum aren’t the means to real reconciliation, but it’s probably focused too much on whether or not Thor* is being physically, psychologically, and/or emotionally “abusive,” with all the baggage that word carries with it.

You’re emphasizing exactly the right issue that everyone invested in Thor and Loki’s relationship, whether sexual/romantic or just brotherly, should care about, regardless of which character they favor and independent of the moralistic language that people on Tumblr love to weaponize (and I don’t exempt myself here).

Telling someone who has known trauma around identity and belonging “who you are is as a person is inadequate and I will disown you unless you change to suit my standards” is…

The fracture in their relationship was around trust—not just Thor’s trust in Loki but also Loki’s trust in Thor. … What Loki needed was to be able to trust in Thor’s love for him: that it wasn’t just circumstantial. That he, as a person, mattered to Thor, and that Thor would be able to re-accept him after his transgressions and would continue to value him. …

But the above scene from Ragnarok, Thor’s ultimatum, would utterly shatter Loki’s trust in all of those things. And, importantly, it would do absolutely nothing to heal Thor’s trust in his brother, either, because… I mean, it was compliance under threat of abandonment. That really doesn’t prove anything about someone’s trustworthiness or whether they have “changed.” All it proves is that you know where their buttons are located.

OK, now all I’m doing is quoting you, but that’s because I really like the way you put it and it’s really, really important.

juliabohemian:

In light of THIS post:

First, I’d really like to write more about this, but free time is intermittent for me. Please, please don’t comment or share this just to argue with me. If you have well thought out points that are based on critical thinking, okay. Otherwise, that’s not why I come to this site. And I will probably just end up blocking you to save myself the stress.

That being said…

I think my issue with Thor fans is that they don’t analyze Loki’s relationship with him critically. Imagine that you just met these two guys. They weren’t gods. They were just two brothers. One wasn’t a hero and one wasn’t a villain. They were just regular guys. Their relationship would seem woefully imbalanced. Most people’s perception of these two characters is deeply colored by the fact that one is marketed to us as a hero and the other a villain.

I often seen people cite examples of how Thor loves Loki -but then they will list something that is actually an example of how their relationship is dysfunctional. Thor “trusting” Loki in TDW was not love. It was desperation to save Jane. It was about his infatuation for Jane. Thor’s relationship with Jane didn’t last -most likely because it was more about possessing her than actually being with her physically.

Thor telling Loki “maybe you’re not so bad” or “maybe there’s still good in you” or “I thought the world of you” is not love. It’s manipulative and passive aggressive and once again, dysfunctional.

Thor using Loki to do “get help” was not an example of how well they get along. It was an example of how Thor continually disregards Loki’s feelings, as long as it serves his purpose.

Thor is nice to Loki when he needs something from him. The eagerness with which Loki responds to this is disturbing. They are both very messed up people. Loki’s eagerness to gain validation from someone is most likely what led to his entanglement with Thanos.

Thor’s obsession with Earth is not love. It’s ego. He likes the idea of protecting someone who is smaller than he is. He likes that they adore and worship them there. And in his defense…who the hell wouldn’t like that?

Does that mean Thor isn’t capable of love? No way. It just means that because of his personalty, experience and maturity level, his concept of what it means to love someone is fairly skewed. Loki’s too, for that matter.

Now all of that being said, I don’t mind that this is their relationship. If they weren’t dysfunctional, they would likely be very boring. I continue to be confused as to why people want to defend Thor, as though the fact that he is a hero means he is supposed to be completely without flaws or questionable motives.

In classic literature, heroes are flawed by nature.

Here’s what Thor SHOULD have said to Fury in Avengers: “My brother tried to kill himself and I’m frankly relieved to find out that he’s still alive. He is unwell, I’m afraid. Please allow me to talk to him and reason with him and take him back home.” And then Thor would have done his best to return Loki to Asgard immediately, instead of dicking around on a hillside with Tony Stark and then dragging Loki off so SHIELD could put him in Bruce Banner’s cage. Those would have been the actions of someone who loved and cared for his brother. Unfortunately, they would also have made for a very boring movie, which is why we got something else.

I will add to this later, when I have time.

I have less of a problem with Thor’s lapses in sensitivity in The Avengers than in Thor: Ragnarok, because he’s still working on his process of maturation and we’re aware that he comes from a warrior culture steeped in toxic masculinity and completely lacking a compassionate understanding of mental illness. But we watch him growing up through the movies that follow… until Thor: Ragnarok, when all of that is more than reversed.

The other extremely problematic thing that I see people citing as an example of how much Thor loves Loki is “Thor didn’t kill Loki when he could have.” Like, what? That is such an incredibly low bar. No shit you don’t kill someone you love, even when they do something shitty to you. If you love them, you also don’t inflict unnecessary pain on them. Saying “Thor just immobilized him with the obedience disk instead of killing him for his betrayal” is like saying “You know that husband loves his wife because he only sprained her wrist when he found her cheating on him, he didn’t actually break it.”

And no, that is not comparable to arguing that Loki still cares about Thor even when he’s in villain mode because he only does things to incapacitate him, not kill him. What Loki does when he’s having a complete emotional and psychological breakdown in Thor or when he’s been manipulated, probably tortured, and severely coerced by Thanos (NOT brainwashed or mind-controlled, I didn’t say that) is NOT comparable to what Thor does when he’s completely in control of his rational faculties, as part of his “clever plan” to reform Loki. In my fanfiction, I’ve had to reinterpret that incident in Ragnarok as Thor reacting in irrational anger, because otherwise it’s unconscionable.

I know you talked about the elevator scene before, but what are your thoughts on Thor’s point of view? I thought he accepted Loki by choosing to let him go instead of chasing him and trying to force him to change or come home. That he was acknowledging who Loki wanted him to believe he was, and was choosing to do what was best for himself/his people despite loving Loki. It seemed like Thor chose to change first by stepping back from an unhealthy relationship instead of continuing to force it??

foundlingmother:

philosopherking1887:

When I first watched Ragnarok, I saw it much the way Anon did… mostly because I was trying to be optimistic. But the more I thought about it and discussed it with people (especially you and @illwynd), the more I realized that Thor is just trying to manipulate Loki into doing and being what he wants, and does not in any way “accept” him for who he is. It’s not only due to Loki that the relationship is unhealthy, and Thor completely fails to acknowledge any part he may have played in contributing to Loki’s unhappiness, or any way in which the relationship was perniciously unequal. His speeches to Loki, in the elevator and while electrocuting Loki, indicate that the only way he sees himself as being at fault is in continuing to extend Loki his trust and affection. He doesn’t seem to entertain the idea that Loki might have legitimate grievances that motivate his actions, even if they don’t excuse them. You’re quite right on this point:

What he sees is someone throwing a fit, baiting him to pay attention, and betraying and hurting him all over (and maybe he thinks that’s a bit his fault because he’s showing Loki love when he’s not being “good”).

Well, part of why the pat on the back seems knowing is that that’s when Thor puts the obedience disk on Loki. Of course he can’t suppress a smug little smile for his oh-so-clever scheme.

Oh, interesting point about Loki helping Thor by exiling Odin… and saying something nice to him when it doesn’t seem to have been necessary for maintaining the ruse. (Though maybe he thought buttering him up was the best way to keep Thor satisfied with his decision to abdicate?)

You may be right that Thor’s complete inability to see things from Loki’s perspective, understand his depth, or think of Loki as having motivations that aren’t centered around him (Thor) is actually not such a departure from Thor’s characterization in earlier films… but I guess I thought he had matured since Thor 1 and the beginning of The Avengers, and it was a real disappointment to see him regress that way. On the other hand, Thor is still pretty obtuse about Bruce’s feelings in AOU when he starts going on about the Hulk’s accomplishments in battle, even if he’s perceptive enough to get something out of his visions.

Regarding Thor’s “plans to bring Loki back to a planet that hates him and just force them to accept that’s what’s happening”: I don’t think that’s meant to be a sign of Thor’s affection or respect for Loki… the self-absorbed “Earth loves me,” plus the fatuous tone in which he delivers the line, makes me think he’s just being an arrogant moron again (as he has been for the entire film) and disregarding Loki’s legitimate concerns for his own well-being. Of course, when we’re trying desperately to make Ragnarok consistent with the rest of canon, we can say it’s because Thor cares so much about Loki that he’ll face down the rest of the Avengers and the International Criminal Court and what have you to protect him.

foundlingmother:

I see it very differently.

Thor wants his brother back. He wants to redeem Loki the Villain. He loves and misses Loki. We know this because he challenges Loki to be more than the God of Mischief (which is a challenge to follow him to save Asgard) and saving Asgard kind of hinges on Loki bring reinforcements (and I think Thor knows that), but I also get the vibe from the way he behaves in the elevator. That pat he gives Loki when he says “that’s what you always wanted” seems so knowing. He knows that he’s pissing Loki off. Well, he’s actually upsetting Loki, but he’s aiming for irritated. He’s really, really bad at seeing/accepting Loki’s side of things and emotions. That’s why Loki’s redemption has to happen on Thor’s terms in the end. When Loki reaches out to Thor, Thor doubts it’s genuine, or can’t conceptualize it as Loki reaching out. Often times the ways Loki ends up helping Thor, thereby showing how much he cares about his brother still, aren’t obvious or nice/affectionate. The obvious help he gives, sacrificing his life, Thor now believes to be a trick (it isn’t by the rules canon outlined for Loki’s magic). When Loki puts Odin in a care home, he saves Thor again (Thor expects Odin to banish him and take away Mjolnir). It’s not an affectionate or traditionally heroic action, but it’s hardly devoid of love. He even fucking tells Thor, as Odin, how proud he is of the man Thor became. You think Odin would ever have said anything like that? No.

Thor thinks his brother’s pretty petty. From his perspective, Loki attacks Midgard because of “imagined slights”. I imagine he also doesn’t get why discovering he was adopted upset Loki so much. If Odin hadn’t adopted Loki, he would have died. Loki betrays and hurts Thor. We know that Loki has reasons, and that it’s difficult to even classify everything he’s done as a betrayal (Thor probably sees Loki not letting anyone know he was alive the first time as a betrayal, but we know shit went down). Thor doesn’t know anything about Loki’s feelings or issues. He’s ignorant of Loki’s depth. What he sees is someone throwing a fit, baiting him to pay attention, and betraying and hurting him all over (and maybe he thinks that’s a bit his fault because he’s showing Loki love when he’s not being “good”).

Previously, Thor’s tried to entice Loki into returning home or to his side by expressing his love and how much he’s mourned him. He does so poorly, to be sure, and he’s a hothead who loses the plot quickly, but it’s genuine. I mean, he sneaks some affection into his elevator speech. He does think the world of Loki. At the end of Ragnarok, he essentially plans to bring Loki back to a planet that hates him and just force them to accept that’s what’s happening. That’s a big fuck you to Midgard. The affection approach doesn’t work on Loki, either because of Loki’s insecurities, or because he’s got to keep acting like an obedient servant to Thanos, since he fears him. From Thor’s perspective, it just doesn’t work. So, new plan. This time he’ll not give Loki attention. This time he’ll act disinterested and outsmart him, call him predictable, and then challenge him not to be. This forces Loki to do good, reminding him that he can, and allowing Thor to once more express his love and trust in response to Loki’s goodness. Some might think I’m giving Thor a lot of credit, but I don’t think it’s that brilliant a plan.

Here are the steps (according to Thor):

Irritate Loki. Don’t give him attention. Just agree with him. Act like you’re fine that he does his own thing (though you’re not).

Loki will try and betray you. That’s what Loki does (when he feels slighted).

Stop him.

Call him predictable (oh, the God of Mischief will really hate that).

Challenge him not to be.

Leave him on Sakaar.

Pray he follows.

Truly, Thor Odinson is a mastermind.

(It should be noted, this causes Loki a lot of emotional pain (and physical pain… that’s the one of the reasons I would rewrite the scene to function differently), and it’s something that should have been addressed (and that I would address in fics, since I know the MCU never will). Thor, once again, unknowingly preys on Loki’s insecurities. However, since the director didn’t particularly care about/recognize Loki’s depth either, it’s all about Thor. Loki’s pretty shallow in Ragnarok. Also, it’s stupid/cruel and ooc for Thor that leaving him on Sakaar means that he leaves him defenseless.)

@philosopherking1887 This feels relevant to what we were discussing about Loki’s betrayal, so I’m @ing you. Also, if you haven’t, I’d be glad for you to read this and let me know your thoughts/how you’d do things.

You may be right that Thor’s complete inability to see things from Loki’s perspective, understand his depth, or think of Loki as having motivations that aren’t centered around him (Thor) is actually not such a departure from Thor’s characterization in earlier films… but I guess I thought he had matured since Thor 1 and the beginning of The Avengers, and it was a real disappointment to see him regress that way.

In one of TDW’s deleted scenes, the one with Frigga and Thor, he seems pretty unable to see Loki’s perspective. He doesn’t understand why Frigga even visits him. That, to me, resembles slash and burn justice. I love Thor, but he doesn’t get Loki. I think it’s less to do with immaturity, though that’s a part of it, and more to do with… how do I put it? Sometimes you’re so close to someone you don’t see them, just the idea you have of them. Thor’s idea of Loki is poorly conceptualized, and fed by Odin (and Loki, who never defends himself). Add Thor’s relative immaturity (he’s trying, but he’s not 100% by any means), and it’s just a mess. That’s why I always say I think Odin’s the biggest obstacle to their reconciliation. Thor needs to have the entire bedrock of his way of thinking shaken, and to stop idolizing his father. Ragnarok, at least, allows me to imagine that happened.

Also, all my meta should come with a warning that I’m completely disregarding the intentions of the director, and I’m going to fix the mess they made so that the characters are consistent.

Ugh, you’re right. P.S., “Sometimes you’re so close to someone you don’t see them, just the idea you have of them” is a very Proustian point, and one that he makes specifically about people you love/ are in love with 😛 Usually that’s a matter of idealizing them, but it also includes thinking that their entire world revolves around you and thinking that all their motivations must somehow be about you.

I was just thinking about interpretation and authorial intent recently, and it occurred to me that with a good work of art, you can explain all its features with reference wholly to reasons internal to the artwork itself, whereas bad works of art force you to look outside the work for explanations (in the mental state or external situation of the creator). It’s heroic of you to try to interpret Ragnarok in a way that’s consistent with the rest of the films, but I think that’s going to involve some really bizarre contortions because (at least as a successor/conclusion to the other films) it’s just so bad. Some people seemed to think the same of The Avengers with respect to Loki’s characterization; part of my goal with Abyss was to show that that wasn’t the case, not least because I trust Joss Whedon’s instincts as a writer (at least when it comes to male characters) and he seemed to genuinely appreciate what Branagh and Hiddleston had accomplished in Thor. So my task wasn’t/isn’t nearly as difficult as yours. In my fanfiction I’ve decided to be semi-selective in which parts of Ragnarok I even accept as canon, or anyway to present interpretations of Thor and Loki’s actions and character drastically different from the ones the film invites.