When I first watched Ragnarok, I saw it much the way Anon did… mostly because I was trying to be optimistic. But the more I thought about it and discussed it with people (especially you and @illwynd), the more I realized that Thor is just trying to manipulate Loki into doing and being what he wants, and does not in any way “accept” him for who he is. It’s not only due to Loki that the relationship is unhealthy, and Thor completely fails to acknowledge any part he may have played in contributing to Loki’s unhappiness, or any way in which the relationship was perniciously unequal. His speeches to Loki, in the elevator and while electrocuting Loki, indicate that the only way he sees himself as being at fault is in continuing to extend Loki his trust and affection. He doesn’t seem to entertain the idea that Loki might have legitimate grievances that motivate his actions, even if they don’t excuse them. You’re quite right on this point:
What he sees is someone throwing a fit, baiting him to pay attention, and betraying and hurting him all over (and maybe he thinks that’s a bit his fault because he’s showing Loki love when he’s not being “good”).
Well, part of why the pat on the back seems knowing is that that’s when Thor puts the obedience disk on Loki. Of course he can’t suppress a smug little smile for his oh-so-clever scheme.
Oh, interesting point about Loki helping Thor by exiling Odin… and saying something nice to him when it doesn’t seem to have been necessary for maintaining the ruse. (Though maybe he thought buttering him up was the best way to keep Thor satisfied with his decision to abdicate?)
You may be right that Thor’s complete inability to see things from Loki’s perspective, understand his depth, or think of Loki as having motivations that aren’t centered around him (Thor) is actually not such a departure from Thor’s characterization in earlier films… but I guess I thought he had matured since Thor 1 and the beginning of The Avengers, and it was a real disappointment to see him regress that way. On the other hand, Thor is still pretty obtuse about Bruce’s feelings in AOU when he starts going on about the Hulk’s accomplishments in battle, even if he’s perceptive enough to get something out of his visions.
Regarding Thor’s “plans to bring Loki back to a planet that hates him and just force them to accept that’s what’s happening”: I don’t think that’s meant to be a sign of Thor’s affection or respect for Loki… the self-absorbed “Earth loves me,” plus the fatuous tone in which he delivers the line, makes me think he’s just being an arrogant moron again (as he has been for the entire film) and disregarding Loki’s legitimate concerns for his own well-being. Of course, when we’re trying desperately to make Ragnarok consistent with the rest of canon, we can say it’s because Thor cares so much about Loki that he’ll face down the rest of the Avengers and the International Criminal Court and what have you to protect him.
I see it very differently.
Thor wants his brother back. He wants to redeem Loki the Villain. He loves and misses Loki. We know this because he challenges Loki to be more than the God of Mischief (which is a challenge to follow him to save Asgard) and saving Asgard kind of hinges on Loki bring reinforcements (and I think Thor knows that), but I also get the vibe from the way he behaves in the elevator. That pat he gives Loki when he says “that’s what you always wanted” seems so knowing. He knows that he’s pissing Loki off. Well, he’s actually upsetting Loki, but he’s aiming for irritated. He’s really, really bad at seeing/accepting Loki’s side of things and emotions. That’s why Loki’s redemption has to happen on Thor’s terms in the end. When Loki reaches out to Thor, Thor doubts it’s genuine, or can’t conceptualize it as Loki reaching out. Often times the ways Loki ends up helping Thor, thereby showing how much he cares about his brother still, aren’t obvious or nice/affectionate. The obvious help he gives, sacrificing his life, Thor now believes to be a trick (it isn’t by the rules canon outlined for Loki’s magic). When Loki puts Odin in a care home, he saves Thor again (Thor expects Odin to banish him and take away Mjolnir). It’s not an affectionate or traditionally heroic action, but it’s hardly devoid of love. He even fucking tells Thor, as Odin, how proud he is of the man Thor became. You think Odin would ever have said anything like that? No.
Thor thinks his brother’s pretty petty. From his perspective, Loki attacks Midgard because of “imagined slights”. I imagine he also doesn’t get why discovering he was adopted upset Loki so much. If Odin hadn’t adopted Loki, he would have died. Loki betrays and hurts Thor. We know that Loki has reasons, and that it’s difficult to even classify everything he’s done as a betrayal (Thor probably sees Loki not letting anyone know he was alive the first time as a betrayal, but we know shit went down). Thor doesn’t know anything about Loki’s feelings or issues. He’s ignorant of Loki’s depth. What he sees is someone throwing a fit, baiting him to pay attention, and betraying and hurting him all over (and maybe he thinks that’s a bit his fault because he’s showing Loki love when he’s not being “good”).
Previously, Thor’s tried to entice Loki into returning home or to his side by expressing his love and how much he’s mourned him. He does so poorly, to be sure, and he’s a hothead who loses the plot quickly, but it’s genuine. I mean, he sneaks some affection into his elevator speech. He does think the world of Loki. At the end of Ragnarok, he essentially plans to bring Loki back to a planet that hates him and just force them to accept that’s what’s happening. That’s a big fuck you to Midgard. The affection approach doesn’t work on Loki, either because of Loki’s insecurities, or because he’s got to keep acting like an obedient servant to Thanos, since he fears him. From Thor’s perspective, it just doesn’t work. So, new plan. This time he’ll not give Loki attention. This time he’ll act disinterested and outsmart him, call him predictable, and then challenge him not to be. This forces Loki to do good, reminding him that he can, and allowing Thor to once more express his love and trust in response to Loki’s goodness. Some might think I’m giving Thor a lot of credit, but I don’t think it’s that brilliant a plan.
Here are the steps (according to Thor):
- Irritate Loki. Don’t give him attention. Just agree with him. Act like you’re fine that he does his own thing (though you’re not).
- Loki will try and betray you. That’s what Loki does (when he feels slighted).
- Stop him.
- Call him predictable (oh, the God of Mischief will really hate that).
- Challenge him not to be.
- Leave him on Sakaar.
- Pray he follows.
Truly, Thor Odinson is a mastermind.
(It should be noted, this causes Loki a lot of emotional pain (and physical pain… that’s the one of the reasons I would rewrite the scene to function differently), and it’s something that should have been addressed (and that I would address in fics, since I know the MCU never will). Thor, once again, unknowingly preys on Loki’s insecurities. However, since the director didn’t particularly care about/recognize Loki’s depth either, it’s all about Thor. Loki’s pretty shallow in Ragnarok. Also, it’s stupid/cruel and ooc for Thor that leaving him on Sakaar means that he leaves him defenseless.)
@philosopherking1887 This feels relevant to what we were discussing about Loki’s betrayal, so I’m @ing you. Also, if you haven’t, I’d be glad for you to read this and let me know your thoughts/how you’d do things.
You may be right that Thor’s complete inability to see things from Loki’s perspective, understand his depth, or think of Loki as having motivations that aren’t centered around him (Thor) is actually not such a departure from Thor’s characterization in earlier films… but I guess I thought he had matured since Thor 1 and the beginning of The Avengers, and it was a real disappointment to see him regress that way.
In one of TDW’s deleted scenes, the one with Frigga and Thor, he seems pretty unable to see Loki’s perspective. He doesn’t understand why Frigga even visits him. That, to me, resembles slash and burn justice. I love Thor, but he doesn’t get Loki. I think it’s less to do with immaturity, though that’s a part of it, and more to do with… how do I put it? Sometimes you’re so close to someone you don’t see them, just the idea you have of them. Thor’s idea of Loki is poorly conceptualized, and fed by Odin (and Loki, who never defends himself). Add Thor’s relative immaturity (he’s trying, but he’s not 100% by any means), and it’s just a mess. That’s why I always say I think Odin’s the biggest obstacle to their reconciliation. Thor needs to have the entire bedrock of his way of thinking shaken, and to stop idolizing his father. Ragnarok, at least, allows me to imagine that happened.
Also, all my meta should come with a warning that I’m completely disregarding the intentions of the director, and I’m going to fix the mess they made so that the characters are consistent.
Ugh, you’re right. P.S., “Sometimes you’re so close to someone you don’t see them, just the idea you have of them” is a very Proustian point, and one that he makes specifically about people you love/ are in love with 😛 Usually that’s a matter of idealizing them, but it also includes thinking that their entire world revolves around you and thinking that all their motivations must somehow be about you.
I was just thinking about interpretation and authorial intent recently, and it occurred to me that with a good work of art, you can explain all its features with reference wholly to reasons internal to the artwork itself, whereas bad works of art force you to look outside the work for explanations (in the mental state or external situation of the creator). It’s heroic of you to try to interpret Ragnarok in a way that’s consistent with the rest of the films, but I think that’s going to involve some really bizarre contortions because (at least as a successor/conclusion to the other films) it’s just so bad. Some people seemed to think the same of The Avengers with respect to Loki’s characterization; part of my goal with Abyss was to show that that wasn’t the case, not least because I trust Joss Whedon’s instincts as a writer (at least when it comes to male characters) and he seemed to genuinely appreciate what Branagh and Hiddleston had accomplished in Thor. So my task wasn’t/isn’t nearly as difficult as yours. In my fanfiction I’ve decided to be semi-selective in which parts of Ragnarok I even accept as canon, or anyway to present interpretations of Thor and Loki’s actions and character drastically different from the ones the film invites.
Loki is the Philosopher King 