foundlingmother:

illwynd:

raven-brings-light:

foundlingmother:

raven-brings-light:

foundlingmother:

icyxmischief:

hela:

What would you like me to say?

Isn’t it great how later in this movie Thor accuses Loki of never wanting to move forward and communicate but right here when he tries, earnestly, to do so, Thor shuts him down. Isn’t that great. 

Isn’t it great how people talk about this scene like Loki’s just goading Thor and not being genuine? Isn’t that just great? I mean, he’s actually:

Loki: It hurts, doesn’t it? Being lied
to. Being told you’re one thing and
then learning it’s all a fiction.

Attempting to begin a conversation about the numerous lies their father told them. One lie in particular. The big one. The lie Thor has yet to condemn Odin for.

Loki: Look, I couldn’t jeopardize my
position with Grandmaster, it took
me time to win his trust. He’s a
lunatic, but he can be amenable.

Providing Thor with a very reasonable explanation for why he couldn’t help him.

Loki: Does this mean you don’t want my
help?

Loki: What I’m telling you is, you could
join me at the Grandmaster’s side.

Offering to help Thor get on the Grandmaster’s good side. 

Loki: Perhaps, in time, an accident
befalls the Grandmaster, and
then… 

Loki gestures: “we take over.” 

Letting Thor in on his plan to take over Sakaar.

Loki: You’re not seriously thinking of
going back, are you? Our sister
destroyed your hammer like a piece
of glass. She’s stronger than both
of us. She’s stronger than you.
You don’t stand a chance. Do you
understand what I’m saying to you? 

Expressing concern for Thor’s life. Openly worrying about Thor returning to fight Hela.

And then, only once Thor’s ignored all of that and thrown pebbles at him the whole time, spouting bullshit about going in alone, trying to goad Thor into saying something. And when that doesn’t work, rather than continuing to goad, he demands Thor say something, uncharacteristically revealing just how much it’s bugging him that Thor has said nothing.

So… I guess that means Thor is 100% right, and he’s the only brother who really wants to repair their relationship. I mean, it’s not possible for the hero to be at all flawed, short-sighted, consumed by grief, and assigning blame to people who don’t deserve it in this circumstance. Characters with realistic reactions to grief? What’s that? Sounds made up. No, Thor’s the good guy, and that means every word out of his mouth is gospel. (Norse Jesus.)

I would love this scene if it heralded character development, but instead it’s just there, making Loki out to be wrong even when he’s being calm, reasonable, and vulnerable with Thor, and contradicting scenes that come later. Oh, and teasing us with an actual conversation about the family drama, which the movie never delivers.

I read this scene differently when I saw it. I didn’t see it as Loki being wrong and Thor being right, but about their flawed relationship. 

Yes, Loki is being relatively calm, reasonable, and vulnerable for the first part of the conversation. But From Thor’s point of view, he’s basically had no time to talk to Loki in years – first Loki lied to him for no ostensibly good reason and then and tried to kill him and then himself (thor 1), then Loki tried to take over Earth (avengers), then Loki managed to cheat death but instead of telling Thor about it he let him grieve AGAIN and he hid and banished Odin (and, in Thor’s mind, was instrumental in his death). Also, Loki has had weeks here in Sakaar coming to terms with the latest turn of events, but for Thor it’s been less than a day since he both got Loki back and lost his father. So, yes, Loki is momentarily pretending all that other stuff didn’t happen and is being nice RIGHT NOW but Thor is not in the mood to particularly give a shit or to be nice himself, and honestly if I were in his place I’d probably react the same way – no matter HOW earnest Loki was being in the first part of the conversation, which he was.

I did like this scene, because it showed how much Loki still cares about what Thor thinks of him, and because it showed that Thor *isn’t* perfect.

Basically, these two just need to be locked in a room together and not allowed out until they vent all their aggression and then actually TALK about everything that’s happened since Thor’s failed coronation. (and then hug it out)

Tl;Dr Thor isn’t perfect, he’s pissed.

I agree with everything you said @raven-brings-light. That’s why I would have liked this scene if they movie had readdressed it. Of course Thor’s not in the mood. This, to me, seems like a completely normal reaction for Thor to have given everything that’s happened. I guess it might have been lost somewhat in my snark, but that’s what I meant when I mentioned consumed by grief. This wasn’t a criticism of Thor.

My issue is with the movie, not Thor. I love a flawed Thor. Flawed heroes are my jam. It’s the movie that never says “Remember when Thor blamed Loki for Odin’s death and Hela’s return in that one scene? He was grieving then. Loki’s not really responsible for that.” It’s the movie that suggests Thor and Loki’s relationship problems are primarily perpetuated by Loki’s character flaws (which certainly play a role, don’t get me wrong), rather than something they’re both responsible for, both because of their actions and failures to communicate with one another.

The scene itself is great from the standpoint that it’s actually as close as we get to showing the nuance of their relationship. It’s letdown by the rest of the movie, which fails to reexamine Thor’s flaws, and thus tricks members of the audience into overlooking them. As I mentioned, I usually see this scene discussed as Thor doing the right thing by ignoring a Loki that’s just needling/goading him, when it seemed so obvious to me that wasn’t what happened. 

So I was thinking about this in the car just now, and actually the more I think about it, I don’t even know if Thor approached this the wrong way at all.

Loki’s initial *words* are truthful, yes, but I don’t believe he’s offering them in the spirit of reconciliation. I think he’s been hanging on by the skin of his teeth in this hellhole, and when Thor showed up he breathed a sigh of relief – THANK GOD, THOR CAN HELP GET ME OUT OF THIS MESS. So he’s being “nice” in order to get Thor to work with him to get them (and by extension, HIM) out of hot water.

And Thor IS pissed, and sees it for what it is, a cheap play to his emotions. And when he stays silent, Loki DOES start goading/needling, because being ignored is what he hates more than ANYTHING ELSE.

(btw all of this should all be read in a tone of friendly discussion! I just like to hash things out! no personal animosity here!)

Yeah idk, I don’t think I wholly agree with that take on it, but honestly this movie is such a mess for anything to do with Thor and Loki’s characterization and particularly their relationship with each other that all we can do is extrapolate and try to make sense of things that don’t make sense in the film. But given the fact that Loki’s first words to Thor when they meet on Sakaar are a legitimately surprised “you’re alive?!” yes, I can agree with the notion that Loki has been hanging on, hating this place but trapped there, and now he’s got his hopes pinned on Thor. But I don’t see his words as insincere in the way I think you mean it? Like, he knows Thor is pissed at him for ALL THE THINGS and… it would be humiliating, in the face of that, to express what he’s actually feeling–the desperation for Thor’s company and good opinion after so long, the relief that the person he cares about most in the universe is not actually dead, the ancient impulse to stick by Thor like glue–so he’s playing it cool, feeling out the situation so if Thor rebuffs him he can try something else without having completely shown his hand. 

And I don’t blame Thor for not letting Loki off the hook that easily. Thor is quite reasonably upset, and eagerly going along with Loki’s plan, showing a willingness to reconcile… would have sure made Loki feel better in the moment but it wouldn’t have done Thor much good, and it wouldn’t have really helped get to the root of their issues either. So yeah I’m not blaming Thor at all for his reactions here.

Personally, my issue with it is that the movie utterly drops the ball after this point and basically forgets this interaction, ignores what their issues are, and instead slots in whatever is needed to make the characters do what the plot requires, no matter how inconsistent or out of the blue it is. So we never actually get to know how this would play out between them because it, well, doesn’t. And consequently, it leaves this scene feeling incomplete and unsatisfying in retrospect.

^^^^^^^^^^

Thanks @illwynd. I think you communicated pretty much my thoughts much better than I did.

When I say Thor has character flaws, it’s more in the sense that he isn’t Norse Jesus, forgiving and Good™ the way I sometimes see fandom talking about him. I think Thor doesn’t always have to be the one reaching out, willing to forgive, being nothing but nice to a cruel, impossible to talk to Loki in all their interactions, for him to be the good guy. Yet, I see their interactions reduced a lot to Thor doing the right/good thing and Loki doing the wrong/bad thing, including this one. My snark was directed at that, and the point of my post was to look at Loki’s lines in the first part of this scene, and point out that most of them are genuine attempts to reach out to Thor, not goading. It’s ok for Loki to reach out once in a while. He can still be a bad guy (or morally ambiguous, if you prefer, which I do).

I think what you said about Thor, how it wouldn’t have done him any good, is quite insightful. Reconciliation needs to happen on both their terms, not on Loki or Thor’s terms. The reconciliation attempt made by Thor in the beginning of Avengers is a great example of one offered on Thor’s terms. He asks Loki to come home, but he doesn’t acknowledge why Loki… left, and even calls Loki’s slights imagined. Here, all the power is reversed. It’s Loki saying “Go along with my plan, Thor. Let’s talk about the lie Odin told me, Thor.” Genuine, but only on Loki’s terms, and now Loki’s ready.

I am in complete agreement with @foundlingmother and @illwynd on this, including the fact that the movie failed to acknowledge that Loki was the one holding out an olive branch here—not very graciously, to be sure—and Thor swatted it down. If Thor gets credit for reaching out to Loki in the scene from The Avengers where he uses the phrase “imagined slights,” Loki should get credit for this. Which is not to say that I blame Thor for turning him down—any more than I blame Loki for turning Thor down in The Avengers.

@raven-brings-light, what did you see as a cheap play to Thor’s emotions? I don’t think that’s what the “It hurts, doesn’t it? Being lied to” line was. I think that was Loki trying—again, very ungraciously—to get Thor to acknowledge the wrongs that had been done to Loki.